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Old 12-30-2017, 12:59 PM   #11
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

Keep on the borderlands was written for D&D 1st edition, and charging into the kobold main room with first level characters would get you killed.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

It's slightly more complicated than that, even: The Keep on the Borderlands was for Basic Dungeons & Dragons, which is even lower-power than 1st edition.
The big points are that there's no "cleave", that Fighters have one less hit point per level, and that 1st-level Clerics don't have spells yet.
The kobold caves are also generally intended for 1st-level characters, so the Magic-User only has a single Sleep spell that will affect 2d8 kobolds.

So yes, charging into a room with forty kobolds is likely to get everyone killed.

There's some mitigating factors, though, some of which are worth keeping in mind if adapting to GURPS.
  • Basic relied heavily on reaction checks, which were fairly generous and unlikely to lead to outright combat. 5- on a 2d6 table, with modifiers generally being +-1. At most 41.67% without DM fiat or the players taking actions into their own hands, in other words, and down to 16.67% if the player character speaking to them is charismatic and knows the Kobold language.
    In DFRPG they react at -5, and will therefore attack on a roll of 14 or less (90.74%). Cultural Adaptivity [10] (Bard) makes this 62.5%, and Bards in general are good for this when Charisma applies.
    However, do note that while Basic D&D gave the majority of its experience points from treasure, Dungeon Fantasy gives a fair amount for defeating enemies. Also, of course, combat is a lot more fun in Dungeon Fantasy than it was in Basic D&D - chances are that the players want to fight!
  • Basic had morale rules, and Kobolds are particularly cowardly: with just 6 morale, Kobolds have a 58.33% chance of fleeing after one of them has been slain, with a second check after half of them have been downed.
    For DF I highly recommend using "And Stay Down!" (Exploits p.86), and you'll want to play up their cowardice as well. (Perhaps as the disadvantage, but not necessarily.)
  • As was the fashion of the time, Keep on the Borderlands assumes a rather large party of six to nine player characters. In other words, you can maybe assume four to seven kobolds a person rather than ten.
    This won't necessarily hold true for Dungeon Fantasy, so beware. However, a Dungeon Fantasy character also has many advantages that a first-level D&D character lacks: among all the obvious ones, I should probably note that a Basic D&D character dies when they reach 0 hit points!
  • Basic D&D has surprisingly involved rules for fleeing encounters, and "kobold losses will not be replaced".
    See also "Running Away!" (Exploits p.22) Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor! Also, of course, it's a lot easier to fight the horde in the 3yd corridor than the 17yd x 13yd common room.
  • The individual Kobolds are very weak - their hit points are small enough that you're almost guaranteed to kill one with each hit, their armor is bad enough that you're somewhat likely to hit (leather), and they do half the damage a typical monster does. They're threatening due to their numbers, but only because the players are also low enough level to be killed by two hits.
    Dungeon Fantasy increases the power of everyone involved here, but probably more to the players advantage. The individual kobolds will inevitably be sturdier than their 1d4hp precursors, but the mere fact that the Wizard can cast more than one spell or the players able to attack more than once in a turn is probably enough to make a difference.
  • An optional rule in The Keep on the Borderlands talks about how the organized monsters might try to take the players ransom rather than kill them and negotiate for their release in exchange for coin or a magic item - and gaining additional recruits in the process, perhaps making up for whatever dent the players might have made.
    If things suddenly seem very dire in your converted adventure as a room you thought was easy turned into a deathtrap, this seems like a useful option. They don't kill you, they humiliate you instead. (And are prepared for the next time.)
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

There's also the question of "What is a kobold?"

Kobolds aren't defined in the DFRPG as yet. They could be quite wimpy, with all attributes at 8, no improved secondary characteristics, and no skills above attribute level . . . Even from behind, they'll only grab someone or land a blow ~26% of the time – and grapples will be ST 8, while blows won't be accurate enough to aim at vital areas, will do 1d-3 or 1d-2 damage, and often won't punch through even DR 1-2. The kobolds will dodge at 7, and an injury of just 5 HP (easily managed by even a ST 10 wizard with a staff: 1d+2 crushing) is more than HP/2 and thus a major wound, and at HT 8, that's going to put a kobold on the ground ~74% of the time. And kobolds are both cowardly (so no All-Out Attacks to boost accuracy or damage) and poorly equipped (forget about armor, or weapons heavier than shortswords).

This is a specific example of the general, which is that stats can be adjusted to make any creature wimpier or scarier. You could even have a brain-damaged mindwarper or lich who botched the transformation and ended up weaker than in life, if you wanted that . . . The point being that if the adventure you're converting is for a few low-level characters, you're going to want to nerf a lot of creatures to be sensible matches for such heroes. The idea of monsters being highly standardized is commonplace today, but back in the days of early D&D modules, creatures were given full stats that weren't always the same everywhere.
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Old 01-01-2018, 07:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

Dinomen seem very similar to kobolds . . . . Little wimpy lizard guys
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Dinomen seem very similar to kobolds . . . . Little wimpy lizard guys
Hmm, go figure. I'm sure it's a coincidence. :)
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Old 02-22-2023, 09:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

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Originally Posted by dripton View Post
An example where the opponent is harder in DFRPG than in D&D is large numbers of fodder humanoids. In D&D you have sweep attacks that let you take out multiple wimps per round, one fireball / cloudkill / sleep spell can take out lots of fodder, and higher level characters have enough hit points that a lucky hit or three doesn't matter. In DFRPG you mostly have to kill them one at a time, you have limited blocks and parries, and you don't get any active defense against attacks from the rear. So, good enemy tactics plus good enemy rolls can kill PCs.
Very true. No magic missile. Sweeping attacks for martial/melee attacks are mostly missing in DFRPG. You. can find them in GURPS DF, but not in DFRPG.
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Old 03-04-2023, 04:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
The kobold main hall in Keep on the Borderlands features 40 combatant kobolds. Granted, they all suck, but the 6 PCs at 200 points each just don't have enough tricks or skill to take on 6 to 1 odds. The front line gets outflanked, the squishies get swarmed and then it's a battle of attrition with the front-liners hoping their armor is good enough to protect them from all the attacks from behind that they can't prevent.

In D&D, the wizard and the elf would drop their Sleep spells and drop enough of them that the rest of the party could handle the remainder, but GURPS multi-target spells just aren't that good.
How much space do they have at start? If they are far enough away, a Wizard could use Explosive fireball or Explosive Lighting. Isn't Mass Sleep an option for the Wizard? Time to cast is a problematic. I'd lead with one of the Explosive spells first. Druid could use Mystic Mist as a delay and confusion tactic. Knight, Barbarian, Swashbuckler and Holy Warrior would just need to kill as many as they could quickly. I'd think Kobolds are kind of cowardly so Intimidation might work to make some of them run away or at least stop and go defensive. The Scout would need to target the leader, strongest, best armed. I'd think for Bard, the best bet is Song of Terror. The only issue is i think it probably could impact your party members also. With the Thief, I'm not sure would be much help except ranged attacks like thrown knves. Maybe Thief helps guarding front line warriors from flanking (using posion weapons? (are kobolds immune?).

Last edited by restlessgriffin; 03-10-2023 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
The general experience is that converting is a pain. It saves you some time, but not all that much.

On the positive side:
1. Maps are already drawn.
2. Combat encounters already exist.
3. You probably have fond memories of the product, or alternately, have always wanted to run the product and now you get the chance to run it in DFRG.

On the negative side:
1. The maps generally don't have very many non-combat challenges, so you have to go and add opportunities for people to climb, jump across ledges, duck under stuff, and otherwise make Thieves and Martial Artists more useful.
I don't have a ton of experience with D&D 5e adventures, but recently I've been looking at the 3 D&D starter adventures from the 2 starter sets and the Essentials kit:
  • Lost Mines of Phandelver
  • Dragon of Icespire Peak
  • Dragons of Stormwreck Isle

All of these have plenty of non-combat activities. For instance, Lost Mines of Phandelver has PC challenges:
  • Dexterity (Stealth) check
  • Wisdom (Perception) check (several of these) trap detection, searching ...
  • Wisdom (Animal Handling) check
  • Strength (Athletics) check -- for Climbing, moving through spiderwebs, ...
  • Dexterity check (lots of these, dealing with traps, saving throws, etc)

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2. Combat balance between some other game and GURPS is going to be very different. A lone golem can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight in the source material, and in GURPS it can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight. You're going to have to decide the challenge for each encounter that you adapt, and sometimes its going to be very hard to hit the right level.
Yeah, the scaling of fights can be a challenge I think. The whole Armor Class D&D vs GURPS armor DR and active defenses. Then there is the lower amount of Area of Effect capabilities in GURPS vs D&D 5e.

There is also the whole long and short rest, where D&D 5e has very easily recovered damage, where in GURPS you'd better have healers and potions aplenty. GURPS has no long rest, but if you get first-aid, a good meal, and rest overnight. You might gain back 1-3 points. But for D&D 5e a long rest will PC will regain all their lost Hit Points and some of their Hit Dice (not really sure what that entails, still learning D&D 5e).

Quote:
Case in point: I adapted Keep on the Borderlands a few years ago. There's an encounter with a lone ogre that is fairly terrifying for 5-6 1st or 2nd level Basic D&D characters. In GURPS, the Scout shot it in the eye without even pausing. Similarly, the dinosaurs from Isle of Dread are moderately nasty if they start close to you in D&D, but are arrow bait in GURPS at just about any range.
I'd think if they start close in GURPS it would be really hard to get off a shot and if you miss you'd be dino food. At least if we're talking T-rex or Raptor or other big carnivor. Also if there's more than one, big problem.

Quote:
3. Related to the above, a lot of published adventures suffer from the "horde of humanoids" problem. The opposition is mostly human-type enemies who fight in melee and maybe have some archers and possibly a spellcaster. This can work fine in some other games, but in DFRPG, you want a lot more variety in monsters or only the Scout and Swashbuckler will really shine.
GURPS DFRPG "fighters" don't have much in the way of Area of Effect attacks. No whirlwind attacks, no Cleave (I think that's available in DF but not DFRPG). The magic casters AoE choices are far more limited and often not as powerful as D&D5e.

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Taking all that into account, my advice is to use published adventures as a source of inspiration. Redraw the maps to suit your purposes. Don't bother doing a mechanical conversion, but come up with your own monsters that feel right to you. If your orcs are more dangerous than your gnolls, don't worry about it and just make sure you and your players are having fun.
I'm going all in on it. However, I will be doing things GURPS style. No mechanical conversions. I'm sticking with using stuff mostly GURPS. No D&D 5e magic missiles. That spell has no equivalent so wizard NPCs will just have to take an appropriate ranged attack spell. The hordes of enemies will be reduced in number in some cases and I'll pay attention to their weaknesses. They will be played so they care about their own survival. If the front line is getting massacred by the PCs, maybe those far away without ranged weapons may just run away. If the NPC enemies are prone to be depicted as Cowardly, then they can get a roll vs Cowardice or they run away. Intimidation and Fear used by PCs will also cause the NPCs to flee or at least not close in to attack immediately.
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Old 04-29-2023, 02:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Christopher Rice converted my 5e adventure Lost Hall of Tyr to DFRPG, at least in brief. Once Lost Hall is available on DriveThru (January sometime), you can see what's the what.
Any ideas on using this adventure in D&D 5e Forgotten Realms setting. I'm specifically looking to put it in the north of Swordcoast.
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Old 04-30-2023, 12:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Any ideas on using this adventure in D&D 5e Forgotten Realms setting. I'm specifically looking to put it in the north of Swordcoast.
So, that original post pre-dated all sorts of stuff.

Lost Hall of Tyr (2nd Edition) is 5E/Dragon Heresy so no conversion needed.

I'm not that familiar with forgotten realms, but the key bit for Lost Hall would be that the hall should be in some pretty fierce mountains, and that there should be a reasonable population center to act as Isfjall and a base of operations.

The place that says "put it here" to me is around Mirabar, but the need for large mountains says "Spine of the World" to me.
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