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Old 08-28-2022, 07:10 AM   #21
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Interestingly, neither this nor 360-Degree Vision remove the penalty to spot something that's above you.
Once upon a time, T. Bone did a complete rework of Peripheral Vision/360-Degree Vision that solved this problem.

Effectively, Peripheral Vision gives you a 270* partial hemisphere of vision in some direction which extends up to 60* upwards. 360* Vision gives you a 360* hemisphere of vision in some direction with a 60* arc - whether upwards, along your sides, or downwards. You can spend extra points to see within an entire hemisphere or globally.

Ideally, both 360-Degree Vision and Peripheral Vision would have been folded into a single trait ("Wide-Angle Vision") in the same way that Mathematical Talent and Intuitive Mathematician or Extra Flexibility and Double-Jointed are combined. (FWIW, I also wish that GURPS 4E had dropped different names for different levels of the same trait and just used levels, like Flexibility 1 or 2 or Empathy 1 or 2).
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Old 08-28-2022, 05:39 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Once upon a time, T. Bone did a complete rework of Peripheral Vision/360-Degree Vision that solved this problem.

Effectively, Peripheral Vision gives you a 270* partial hemisphere of vision in some direction which extends up to 60* upwards. 360* Vision gives you a 360* hemisphere of vision in some direction with a 60* arc - whether upwards, along your sides, or downwards. You can spend extra points to see within an entire hemisphere or globally.

Ideally, both 360-Degree Vision and Peripheral Vision would have been folded into a single trait ("Wide-Angle Vision") in the same way that Mathematical Talent and Intuitive Mathematician or Extra Flexibility and Double-Jointed are combined. (FWIW, I also wish that GURPS 4E had dropped different names for different levels of the same trait and just used levels, like Flexibility 1 or 2 or Empathy 1 or 2).
At least they got rid of Calm, Cool and collected for various levels of Fearlessness. Sheesh.
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Old 08-29-2022, 04:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Ideally, both 360-Degree Vision and Peripheral Vision would have been folded into a single trait ("Wide-Angle Vision") in the same way that Mathematical Talent and Intuitive Mathematician or Extra Flexibility and Double-Jointed are combined. (FWIW, I also wish that GURPS 4E had dropped different names for different levels of the same trait and just used levels, like Flexibility 1 or 2 or Empathy 1 or 2).
Yeah, we've all got our pet peeves where the redesign was concerned. Mine was the Knot-Tying skill. Given that one of the expressed changes with 4E was to eliminate all those splatbook creep skills such as Cyberaxe, Fanning, Traffic Analysis and Uttering of Base Coin, I firmly believe/d that learning how to tie useful specialized knots is a fundamental and specialized component of any number of skills -- Survival, Seamanship, Freight Handling, Riding, etc. -- and no more independently learned from them than Abacus was from Merchant or Mathematics.
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Old 08-29-2022, 06:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Given that one of the expressed changes with 4E was to eliminate all those splatbook creep skills such as Cyberaxe, Fanning, Traffic Analysis and Uttering of Base Coin, I firmly believe/d that learning how to tie useful specialized knots is a fundamental and specialized component of any number of skills -- Survival, Seamanship, Freight Handling, Riding, etc. -- and no more independently learned from them than Abacus was from Merchant or Mathematics.
As I recall, the explanation for its inclusion was that the system already had Escape skill, which could be used in a quick contest to get out of being tied up - so people reasonably asked, what skill did you roll it against?

Whether it should have defaulted at no or small penalties to countless other skills is a separate question.
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Old 08-29-2022, 07:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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As I recall, the explanation for its inclusion was that the system already had Escape skill, which could be used in a quick contest to get out of being tied up - so people reasonably asked, what skill did you roll it against?
"Professional Skill: Bondage"?
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Old 08-29-2022, 08:08 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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DX +2 doesn't do what you want it to do. You need +2 Enhanced Dodge/Block/Parry (all melee) for 60/12.

It may cost out that way (~19 pts) but there is no way it's worth as much as HPT, let alone more. I think 5 pts would just get it to "attractive". Most characters still wouldn't take it. But at least some probably would.
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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Yeah. There's a large difference between "This is what the under-the-hood point breakdown under the statutory rules system would cost" and "This is what the vast majority of GURPS players genuinely feel it is worth."

After a certain point, and given a certain volume of players, it's hard to justify the premise that tens of thousands of players are mistaken in their assessment.
yep.



On the one hand, a GM only has so much bandwidth for presenting house-rules. On the other, if a player is aware that the GM thinks and advantage isn't worth it and will happily give a massive discount to a trait... it might be worth it. Also, its likely to be stuck on a template anyways, so maybe its not as much overhead as a I think it might be.



Would 360 vision be 10 points?



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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It also grants a wider field of view for Vision checks in general. This isn't defined firmly in a mechanical sense, outside of always getting Vision checks vs people trying to sneak up on you (and how many GMs actually refuse perception checks when someone is being snuck up upon?).
letting it give a general bonus vs. visual stealth would be interesting, I think.
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Old 08-29-2022, 01:36 PM   #27
martinl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Peripheral Vision [15]...

I’ve never used this advantage...
Ditto.

PV is like Danger Sense in that

A. It is clearly worth it to avoid unpleasant surprises. However, GURPS's realistic-ish combat system makes these kinds of surprises unpleasantly fatal a lot of the time, so most GMs avoid them.

B. It expands senses in a way that is very valuable for characters but less so for players. In both mapped and unmapped combat, the players have a much better idea of the overall sitch than the characters do, and similarly players are generally unrealistically cautious because if a scene is being RPed at all there's a high chance that it is dangerous.

C. It is a sense based enhancement that could be traded for +3 Perception.

D. It is a survivability based enhancement competing with DX, HT, Combat Reflexes, and Luck, all of which which enhance survivability a lot more.

PV is unlike DS in that:
DS is cool.

So I've (rarely) seen DS on PCs but never PV. I might take it for RP reasons, but my inner point shaver would be unhappy.
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Old 08-30-2022, 01:39 AM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

I dunno, if the PCs average at ~12 HT or so they can generally withstand an awful lot of damage without dying. Probably won't be in fighting condition though, but if getting captured is an acceptable outcome then PCs getting ambushed isn't that bad.

If you turn up all the injury rules for realism then any kind of injury could turn nasty though, but I'm kind of assuming GURPS without all those optional rules for infected wounds and so on.
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Old 09-03-2022, 09:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Peripheral Vision

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
After a certain point, and given a certain volume of players, it's hard to justify the premise that tens of thousands of players are mistaken in their assessment.
Exactly, as I mentioned, even reduced to 5 points I've never seen it taken where it wasn't an unwanted part of a Racial Template.


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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
PV is like Danger Sense in that...
Inversely I find Danger Sense shows up on at least one Character in each campaign I allow it becuase it allows defenses against unknown attacks and bonuses to surprise attacks... which I'm too lazy to check and see if those are just my House Rules or not.

Quote:
A. It is clearly worth it to avoid unpleasant surprises. However, GURPS's realistic-ish combat system makes these kinds of surprises unpleasantly fatal a lot of the time, so most GMs avoid them.
True, however my Players all know (or are told in advnace) that "the dice fall where they may" and I don't avoid unwanted death from my side of the screen, if the game is Cinematic, I add cinematic options to give the Players greater ability to avoid unwanted results on their end (via Impulse Buys, Advantages, etc).

Quote:
B. It expands senses in a way that is very valuable for characters but less so for players. In both mapped and unmapped combat, the players have a much better idea of the overall sitch than the characters do, and similarly players are generally unrealistically cautious because if a scene is being RPed at all there's a high chance that it is dangerous.
I even use Situational Awareness checks and I still never see Peripheral Vision show up, which I have give +3 to SA checks.

Quote:
C. It is a sense based enhancement that could be traded for +3 Perception.
Again, I priced PV at 5 points.

Quote:
D. It is a survivability based enhancement competing with DX, HT, Combat Reflexes, and Luck, all of which which enhance survivability a lot more.
This is pure fact. I see HPT far, far, far more often than even Danger Sense, despite HPT only being useful once you get hit (generally as I don't feature torture very often in my games), where as Danger Sense and PV help to avoid being hit.

Quote:
PV is unlike DS in that:
DS is cool.
DS doesn't reduce penalties to firing "over your shoulder", which in my Wild West game, PV did... and still PV wasn't taken, but DS was (admittedly on a gambler who avoided gun-fights, but still).
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