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Old 02-14-2011, 08:15 AM   #31
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

They're claws - even if the beast is magical in nature, its claws wouldn't get 'magical, -10%' unless they suddenly disappeared (or lost all their power) when in a no-mana environment.

If the beast depends upon mana to survive, then he'd get a Dependency (Mana, Constant) disadvantage, but I wouldn't give him the Magical (or any other power modifier) on the vast majority of his natural abilities.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:24 AM   #32
Fwibos
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

In addition:
If you want to defeat armor you will need to:

have a high damage attack: Striking ST, regular ST, and Claws OR Armor Divisor on your attack.

cause your opponent to become helpless: Slams and Sweeps and pinning them to the ground. if they can't act, then armor is only so usefull.

Now, either of these make you a glass cannon.
To Prevent that, we have a few options:

Since you won't be using weapons, I will ignore block.

Parrying is the cheapest defense. However, it will require equipment or DR to parry weapons. and it may require you to take skills that don't reperesent your fighting style.

Dodging and moving at full speed is the best defense. However, it can become expensive to raise your dodge score (via Speed or Enhanced Dodge), or add ATR

And of course, let's not forget that tactics should play into it. When an animal attacks, they tend to attack from surprise, of full movement (a la flying leap or flying slam), striking first and hard.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:26 AM   #33
Fwibos
 
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Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
They're claws - even if the beast is magical in nature, its claws wouldn't get 'magical, -10%' unless they suddenly disappeared (or lost all their power) when in a no-mana environment.

If the beast depends upon mana to survive, then he'd get a Dependency (Mana, Constant) disadvantage, but I wouldn't give him the Magical (or any other power modifier) on the vast majority of his natural abilities.

I don't disagree with your response, but I can think of circumstances when magical would be appropriate for a beastman/werewolf. A magical curse or magical transformation that ends in no-mana areas.

Also, Don't forget switchable unless you always have claws out. if so, think about bad grip.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:38 AM   #34
Langy
 
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Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fwibos View Post
I don't disagree with your response, but I can think of circumstances when magical would be appropriate for a beastman/werewolf. A magical curse or magical transformation that ends in no-mana areas.

Also, Don't forget switchable unless you always have claws out. if so, think about bad grip.
If it's a magical transformation it's best modeled by Alternate Form with the Magic, -10% limitation, not an Innate Attack with Magic, -10%.

Maybe if his claws were actually magical and not physical at all they could get the Magic, -10% limitation, but otherwise the build doesn't make much sense. You could increase the power of your claws with a Magic, -10% limitation to represent something like an innate enchantment upon your claws or something like that, but he'd need another advantage to represent the fact that he's got claws at all first.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:41 AM   #35
Fwibos
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
If it's a magical transformation it's best modeled by Alternate Form with the Magic, -10% limitation, not an Innate Attack with Magic, -10%.

Maybe if his claws were actually magical and not physical at all they could get the Magic, -10% limitation, but otherwise the build doesn't make much sense. You could increase the power of your claws with a Magic, -10% limitation to represent something like an innate enchantment upon your claws or something like that, but he'd need another advantage to represent the fact that he's got claws at all first.
Why? if you describe your innate attack as "claws" then your Innate attack is claws. You wouldn't need claws AND an innate attack (claws).

But this is not relevant. The build has been discounted because it's more complex than the GM and player would prefer.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:58 AM   #36
Langy
 
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Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fwibos View Post
Why? if you describe your innate attack as "claws" then your Innate attack is claws. You wouldn't need claws AND an innate attack (claws).
Because if you call it 'claws', but give the whole thing a -10% Magic limitation, then your claws will disappear (or at least become as effective as a normal human punch) the moment you enter a no-mana zone, and that doesn't make much sense. Even in a no-mana zone they should probably be at least as effective as natural claws.
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:17 AM   #37
Fwibos
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Because if you call it 'claws', but give the whole thing a -10% Magic limitation, then your claws will disappear (or at least become as effective as a normal human punch) the moment you enter a no-mana zone, and that doesn't make much sense. Even in a no-mana zone they should probably be at least as effective as natural claws.
Unless they do, in fact, go away in a no-mana zone. Which is totally ok.
if you buy an alternate form with Magical, it goes away when you go into a no-mana zone. Why trouble yourself with alternate from when you can just buy the advantage, unless you actually have an alternate form.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:17 AM   #38
Bokker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

Uh, wow. Really fast thread growth. You guys are nifty. :)

Lots of great ideas, and thank you for them. To clarify a few things though:

He's bipedal, generally humanoid (two arms, two legs, one head, one butt, that whole bit), the clawed things at the ends of the arms are hands with opposable thumbs and such. And he's as intelligent as the average human too, and very cunning. Kind of a wilderness-dwelling warrior sort who got stuck with guiding a bunch of city types through the deep forests (the money was good and the food was better).

He's not a magical beast-man or anything, just a more or less mundane nonhuman species native to the game world, with claws and teeth that stay where they are regardless of mana level.

I also really like the cestus/combat glove idea. I didn't even think of fingerless hand protection, fool that I am.

Hm. I'm also not opposed to taking the actual Karate skill, as I'm now believing the character's fighting style hinges more on Techniques than the underlying skill.

A question though. If I take Wrestling and the Perk Skill Adaptation (Judo Techniques to Wrestling), how much actual Judo skill would I really need? Something tells me it might be a bad idea to totally forsake Judo, even with the Perk and mostly being a toothy, clawed grappler. Well-rounded and versatile and all that.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:48 AM   #39
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

I'm not really sure why you'd waste the perk. Just take Judo + Power Grappling perk. If your ST is higher than your DX, it's well worth it.

When I ran my werewolf, he was a SM 1, ST 20 something monster that used Brawling and Wrestling, chiefly. Against lightly armored targets, he just ripped with his claws and stayed mobile, while against heavily armored opponents, he went for the bite, grapple and wrench limb. 4dice of swinging damage to a limb generally gets through everybody's armor. :D
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:25 PM   #40
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Viable fighter using only claws and teeth?

If you're willing to take Karate, your build options improve quite a bit. You can now safely parry weapons without taking huge penalties to do so.

For high ST characters, especially ones with Karate, I generally prefer Wrestling to Judo. The additional ST bonus from high Wrestling helps a lot, and you can defend yourself against weapons with Karate. If you take the Technique Adapation (Karate Parry sets up Arm Lock), you can defend against an attack, use Wrestling to make the arm lock the next turn, and then start shredding the imprisoned foe. Or rip their arms off or whatever you need to - as Verjigorm points out, Wrench Limb generally does the job. Neck Twist or throws from locks are also viable options.

For this kind of build, see if you can afford Extra Attack (Multistrike, Unarmed Only) and some points in the Feint technique. The ability to set up that Arm Lock with a highly skilled Feint makes a big difference in getting through defenses, and having the option to make multiple claw attacks or make multiple wrestling attacks in a single round is a big help, too.

If you're planning to be more of a Technique based fighter, Counter Attack is another good one. Parry Defense on one round, followed by an Extra Attack for a Feint and then a Counter Attack Arm Lock... it costs about 40 points, but it has a high chance of getting through skilled defenses and setting the foe for a world of hurt on future rounds.
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