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Old 02-07-2008, 09:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
This is a great initiative, but adding to this a GURPS 4e -Martial Arts expanded- combat flowchart would be SUPERB!
I started doing one (with some stuff from High-Tech as well) which has 125 different steps or so but since it is made from scratch it probably has tons of bugs in it. Is there an official (or unofficial) one already?
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:41 AM   #22
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Wow! Thank you all for the help, this is exactly what I was hoping for - the hive-mind to go over the examples and help me correct them! If the examples are incorrect they're worse than worthless, they're actually counter-productive to helping people learn the system.

On to a plethora of replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik
In example one, turn two. You have green spending a movement point on an Attack manoeuvre. MP only occur in a Move, Move and Attack, All out Attack, or All out Defence (Increased Dodge) manoeuvre (B387). What he is actually doing is taking a step. [snip] The same things shows up in a few other combats.
Exactly right - I'll correct that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralRunner
I would also recommend including at least one example in which an unarmed combatant losses a hand from an armed parry, or at least losses the use of one.
Definitely on the 'To Do' list, once these nine are scrubbed and polished to a high shine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirg
In melee 2 with a nasty GM, Zachs Wait wouldn't trigger. He specifies to strike the first enemy who approaches with his axe, while he has a mace ready (he probably doesn't even have an axe). Of course, this is a minor detail...
DOH - one of the problems with copying & pasting so much info. I'll correct that - minor details are exactly what I'm looking to fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daverius
In the close combat example, Arthur grapples Zach with two arms. Zach attacks Arthur and Arthur parries. I think it says that if you are grappling with both your hands, then you can not use them, unless you opt to grapple with one hand.
Exactly right - I'll correct that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
This is part of the 'RAW'. See also the notes on "Completely unaimed attacks", on the same page but before the above quote. It states that use use the random hit locations for those type of attacks.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that defaulting non-specified attacks to the torso was *not* part of RAW - it's just that the option to roll randomly for all non-specified attacks is also part of RAW, so I went with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
Vehicular and mounted combat are other areas for examples. Also, bigger combats, interesting terrain, supernatural powers, spells -- but that stuff takes work. You know, I wonder if the forumistas could collaborate on a few sample combats ...
Oh absolutely - I plan to continue adding examples as time allows, the more comprehensive the examples the better. Just starting 'small'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads
Wrong; see Martial Arts, p. 119 ("Pain and Breaking Free") and 122 ("What Is... a Parry?").
Technically correct, but at least for the moment I'm keeping things confined to the Basic set only - Martial Arts (and others) are a little down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobKamm
Thank you for these, I'll be suggesting your page as a 'suggested reading' for my players in the very near future. Just a couple of things that I caught.

Melee One: I'll second the suggestion that you use the 'step' terminology rather than MP expenditure.

Melee Two: Just a suggestion to improve the lesson of this fight. In round 2, I'd suggest explicitly pointing out that the arm hit is not a crippling injury because it did not exceed HP/2.

Melee Three: Turn 3: You have Green parry in the turn that he is readying his sword. See 'Your Turn' on B363. Suggestion: Make it another dodge.

This last issue is, I think, a legacy from other games. The point could be made even clearer in your examples if you were to break up the action from the Round 1 G and R, Round 2 G and R... format and put them into G turn 1, R turn 1, G turn 2, R turn 2...

A minor nit: any chance you could add page references for some of the options that you're using, ie: Zach Red spends 1 FP to make a Mighty Blow (B357).
All good catches - I'll correct those. I think I'll stay with the 'Turn' format I'm using currently though, unless enough other people find it distracting. Good idea to include page references as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgellis
I may be reading something wrong, but I think there is an error in ranged combat example #2.

If...

Arthur rolls 3d6 against his effective Guns (Rifle) skill of 14 (+1 for All-Out Attack (Determined), +1 for bracing, +9 for Accuracy, +2 for Aiming (3 seconds), -7 for Hit Location: Skull, -14 for 500 yards range)...

Then I don't think he'd hit on a 12. 14- + 1 + 1 + 9 + 2 - 7 - 14 = 6-.

Or am I missing something?
Arthur's Guns (Rifle) skill is actually 22 - the 14 is his effective skill after all modifiers. (22 + 1 +1 +9 +2 -7 -14 = 14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
This is a great initiative, but adding to this a GURPS 4e -Martial Arts expanded- combat flowchart would be SUPERB!
I'll definitely be incorporating MA material into future examples, just trying to get a handle on Basic with these nine first. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobKamm
Close One, turn 2: you've got Green's HP correct in the stat block at the top. However, the text states "Arthur's HP are reduced to 9..." should be 6.

Also, you might want to note that using Martial Arts will change parts of this combat. Specifically MA98-9 offers a much more realistic modifiers for fighting between different postures.

Close Two, turn 2: Red has an effective skill of 13, and rolls 14. Yes, this is a possible hit but to the torso, not the face as the results subsequently portray.
Oops - I'll correct those, more copy & paste nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3d6
Quick question: Move points?
Movement Points are mentioned in the sidebar of B386 as a way to track movement in Tactical Combat; I was attempting to include all the options from Tactical Combat as well, though most of the examples so far don't actually show a lot of movement, so most of it hasn't come up yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garion
I have not finished reading all of these, but unluess I'm mistaken, in melee combat example 2 Zach gets hit in the arm for cutting damage after DR; I don't think you use the cutting damage multiplier on extremeties like arms and legs.
Not sure on that one Garion - I see where B399 says (for limbs) "...reduce the wounding multiplier of large piercing, huge piercing, and impaling damage to x1", but I wasn't able to find anything related to cutting damage.


Again, thanks all for the replies - looks like I've got some cleaning up to do! Should have corrected versions posted sometime today.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Wow...glad I read this and made my comment, because I never noticed that the cutting damage modifier is apparently still applied to limbs. My bad. Ya learn somethin' new and all that rot.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:05 AM   #24
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Why did you convert some weapons damage?

M1: Small Mace 2d(converted from 1d+4)
M2: Mace 2d+1(converted from 1d+5)
M3: Greatsword 2d+1(converted from 1d+5)

That impacts the range of possible damage:
M1: 2d 2-12, 1d+4 5-10
M2: 2d+1 3-13, 1d+5 6-11
M3: 2d+1 3-13, 1d+5 6-11

By not converting you lose 2 points of possible damage at the high end, but are assured of about double damage at the low end compared to the conversion.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:18 AM   #25
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesterfield
By not converting you lose 2 points of possible damage at the high end, but are assured of about double damage at the low end compared to the conversion.
I can't answer for anybody else, but I personally do those sorts of conversions because I consider the bell curve with two dice to be more realistic than assured double damage at the low end. In terms of pure efficiency your way is better than the slightly higher top end, yes.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:50 AM   #26
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjork
I started doing one (with some stuff from High-Tech as well) which has 125 different steps or so but since it is made from scratch it probably has tons of bugs in it. Is there an official (or unofficial) one already?
I think no... So please go on! That should be very interesting and extremely useful.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Comment on Melee 1:

After Zach hits Arthur the first time, Arthur (wisely) does an AoD maneuver. It is often the case that after a pretty good hit, it is worthwhile choosing an All-out-Attack maneuver. Since a mace can be used every turn, and you're pretty darn sure that Arthur did AoD, that you try AoA. Double is nice, as it maximizes the chances that Arthur has to make a defense roll, and even with AoD, making two of them is often difficult.


Also, they both have Reach 1 weapons and Step of 1. So it makes Sense for Arthur to Retreat for the parry bonus he'd get. He still wouldn't have parried, but it might be worthwhile to point out the options. It also allows him, on his turn, to Step BACKWARDS while doing AoD. Zach, of course, would follow up his attack with his (so far) unused Step, maintaining Reach 1 but driving Arthur backwards.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:15 PM   #28
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Comment on Melee 2

Looking quickly at the characters, Arthur has 40pts in stats to Zach's 60. Since they both have a melee skill at DX+4, Arthur is at a disadvantage here. A "point balanced" scenario would be ST14/HT12 or ST13/HT13.

Another possibility on how to divvy up points would be ST12, HT12, and Enhanced Parry 1, plus 10pts in something similar - Extra Attack?

This is more advanced than you probably want for Example 2, but there are some interesting other options on an equal points basis.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:31 PM   #29
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Comment on Melee 3

Arthur whips out his Greatsword (boo-yah!) and charges in while Zach is unready. Good plan. BUT!! Arthur should stop moving at maximum reach.

If Arthur DOES run up right next to Zach, Zach's best move may well be to step into close combat and Ready his weapon, or maybe even step in with a boot to the crotch. Granted, this is "melee" example, but this is part of tactics.

Does a Move and Attack qualify as an AoA? I don't have books with me. If so, stepping into Reach C and either grappling or just going for the field goal to the jewels might well be the right call.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:45 PM   #30
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Made a number of changes based on the feedback so far:

* Close Combat One, Turn 1: added a clarifying note regarding the reach of a Kick attack
* Close Combat One, Turn 2: corrected Arthur's HP from '9' to '6'
* Close Combat Two, Turn 2: corrected Zach's roll of '14' (which would have missed) to '12' (which hits)
* Close Combat Two, Turns 4 and 7: corrected text regarding Grappling with one or two hands, and the effect on Parrying
* Close Combat Two, Turn 6: added a note regarding additional options in Martial Arts

* Melee One, Turn 4: added a missing check for Knockdown and Stunning due to a Major Wound
* Melee Two, Turn 2: corrected Zach's 'axe' to a 'mace' (which is the weapon he's actually using)
* Melee Two, Turn 2: added a clarifying note regarding limb crippling
* Melee Three, Turn 3: corrected Arthur's Parry to a Dodge (he could not Parry, his weapon isn't Ready)

* Ranged Two: corrected the Sniper Rifle's damage from 'imp' to 'pi'
* Ranged Two, Turn 4: clarified text regarding -5xHP and -10xHP thresholds

* Multiple: corrected all instances of "...spends 1 Movement Point" to "...uses his Step" (maneuvers with a Step component don't require spending MP)
* Multiple: added a lot of parenthetical page references to the text; in particular, I added page references to all of the following the first time they appear in a given example:

Bleeding (B420)
Deceptive Attack (B369)
Dice Conversions (B269)
Disarm (B401)
Dodge and Drop (B377)
Dodging Rapid Fire (B375)
Feverish Defense (B357)
Grappling (B370)
Hurting Yourself (B379)
Kicking (and falling down) (B274)
Knockback (B378)
Knockdown and Stunning (B420)
Lethal Strike (B404)
Mighty Blows (B357)
Neck Snap (B404)
Rapid Fire (B373)
Retreat (B377)
Scatter (B414)
Sprinting (B354)
Unconsciousness (recovering from) (B423)


Thanks again and keep up the good work - this has all been extremely helpful!
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