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Old 05-23-2022, 09:33 PM   #41
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Originally Posted by Witchking View Post
The example of spending a point in a skill is intended as a beginning point, i.e. do so at character creation. (Even a single point is precious at creation when you are building on 100-150 and learning Hard skills from scratch takes a fair while) Then as the character's career moves along you can steadily build up the skill with earned cp. If you find it useful feel free to spend alot of points and master it.

IME options are good. I have played 'specialist' less over the years and moved to more 'generalist' character builds.

If you can do many things competently (12-15) you are less likely to be caught flatfooted. You can also try to focus towards your opponent's weaknesses and away from yours.

YMMV as always.
There's nothing stopping you from investing points in a skill after the game starts. And the most efficient way to build a generalist is usually high attributes anyway.

Note that I am mainly thinking about this in terms of helping players new to GURPS make characters. Though my real struggle here may be with the fact that the vanilla GURPS grappling rules have some real potential pitfalls for new players. Possibly what I really need to do is grok the technical grappling rules well enough to understand if they actually solve all the problems with the standard grappling rules.
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Note that I am mainly thinking about this in terms of helping players new to GURPS make characters.
Understood and thanks for the clarification.

To inform the general audience my experience as a player is mostly in an environment where if you want a /Hard or /Very Hard skill (spells for mages being an exception) it is best to pick it up at creation. There is no guarantee (in this campaign setting) that you will be able to find a teacher for 'rarer' skills when you wish. If a teacher can be found and is willing a P/H skill might take a month or three of training before point 1 can be spent and skill aquired. Mental skills similar but probably a bit longer than that.

Up shot for New GURPS players is that best practice would be to get a very clear understanding of YOUR GM's philosophy on skill acquisition and improvement before building your PC.
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:02 PM   #43
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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There's nothing stopping you from investing points in a skill after the game starts.
Some GM's will require you to find a teacher to learn a skill you outright lack, and do some minimum of study under them, before you can even invest your own earned points into the skill, but are more lax when it comes to skills you already have. In a case like that, putting [1] in Wrestling means the character doesn't have to track down Dr. McLuchador to be able to learn it later, he can just improve what he already has.

I do agree that high attributes combined with a minimal investment in skills it generally the optimal way to make a generalist (heck, it often is more efficient for specialists, as those often still have a few skills that use the same base attribute).
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:51 PM   #44
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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I do agree that high attributes combined with a minimal investment in skills it generally the optimal way to make a generalist (heck, it often is more efficient for specialists, as those often still have a few skills that use the same base attribute).
I would expect on this point you would get about 85-90% agreement on the Fora...

Unless you are deliberately building somewhat sub-optimal for roleplaying purposes.
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Old 05-24-2022, 01:02 AM   #45
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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The niche for Wrestling is to buy it up to Dex+2 and get the +2 ST bonus. Not everything can be resolved with straight Skill rolls.
I'm not at all a good fighter IRL but I would still fear the following in this order
Wrestling > Judo > Karate.

But that is mainly because I know someone who amateur wrestled (what a term for it...) regularily throughout his life and is still built like a brick outhouse in his later 60s.
In fact, he looks a bit like one of those hairless chimps, only a bit more handsome :P

Karatekas and Judokas on the other hand, I don't tend to even envision 'strong'.
I would do a google search on it but I fear that karateka/judoka topless or nude would give me results I'm not interested in at this particular moment in time.

Maybe the pros are henchmen, who knows. I don't. I just know it from movies, and the ones I've seen IRL were just regular people going to a dojo for some casual training.
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Old 05-24-2022, 03:17 AM   #46
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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I'm not at all a good fighter IRL but I would still fear the following in this order
Wrestling > Judo > Karate.

But that is mainly because I know someone who amateur wrestled (what a term for it...) regularily throughout his life and is still built like a brick outhouse in his later 60s.
In fact, he looks a bit like one of those hairless chimps, only a bit more handsome :P

Karatekas and Judokas on the other hand, I don't tend to even envision 'strong'.
It's always hard for me to discern cause+effect for these things. I know wrestlers do a lot of strength/endurance stuff that can transform bodies, but it's also true that those with the frame and genetic potential at certain sports tend to excel in them more and stick around in the sport longer throughout life as it's more enjoyable when you're good at it.
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Old 05-24-2022, 02:12 PM   #47
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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There's nothing stopping you from investing points in a skill after the game starts. And the most efficient way to build a generalist is usually high attributes anyway.
Remember pp. B292ff. "You may only add a skil (using Character Point awards)l if you attempted a default roll (see Quick Learning Under Pressure, box) or if you spent most of the adventure around people who were constantly using the skill." The Unarmed Combat skills have no default, and most adventures do not involve living in a dojo.

If you told me your character wanted to learn an unarmed combat skill using the Study Time rules, he would need partners, and partners for basic grappling and striking are easier to find than for what GURPS calls Judo.
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Old 05-24-2022, 03:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Remember pp. B292ff. "You may only add a skil (using Character Point awards)l if you attempted a default roll (see Quick Learning Under Pressure, box) or if you spent most of the adventure around people who were constantly using the skill." The Unarmed Combat skills have no default, and most adventures do not involve living in a dojo.

If you told me your character wanted to learn an unarmed combat skill using the Study Time rules, he would need partners, and partners for basic grappling and striking are easier to find than for what GURPS calls Judo.
I think you can book-learn skills without direct partners (though whoever wrote the book is an indirect one)

I kinda wonder how animals manage to learn it though, I guess all the play-brawling they do with their littermates under the supervision of a parent?

The very first brawlers who crawled out of the Primordial Ooze must've had Wild Talent.
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Old 05-24-2022, 04:38 PM   #49
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

I probably won't do this, but it's crossed my mind that I could give every PC Sumo Wrestling at DX, and Sweep at Sumo Wrestling, for a total cost of 6 points. Not the most efficient way to spend character points for every character, but it guarantees everyone has a reasonable way to put an enemy on the ground, regardless of encumbrance.
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Old 05-24-2022, 06:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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I think you can book-learn skills without direct partners (though whoever wrote the book is an indirect one)

I kinda wonder how animals manage to learn it though, I guess all the play-brawling they do with their littermates under the supervision of a parent?
I would in no case allow a character to learn a Hard grappling skill without partners who have the skill. That would be like letting someone without access to tools learn Artist (Painting) by self-study. And yes, animals teach each other by playfighting and watching older animals. You can see stags practicing wrestling with their antlers before rutting season.
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