[Pyramid] Replacing Claws and Teeth with Natural Weapons

[CarrionPeacock]

By default adding Sharp Claws and Sharp Teeth to a race costs 6 points.
The Natural Weapons article adds a more flexible version of these advantages and suggests replacing the natural weapons from Basic with it, but is not explicit on how. Is the following build correct? It seem a little too expensive:
Sharp Teeth: Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%) [5]
Sharp Claw (Hands): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%) [5]
Sharp Claw (Feet): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Extra Reach, C,1, +50%) [11]
Total point cost is 21, nearly four times the original cost for worse results (-1 per die on punches instead of flat -1).

[Kesendeja]

Out of curiosity which issue is this out of, it's something I'd like to look into more.

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Kesendeja

Out of curiosity which issue is this out of, it's something I'd like to look into more.

It's from Pyramid #3/65.

[Varyon]

A few thoughts, although away from my .pdfs so can't check the numbers.

Sharp Teeth needs Single - it only gives you the weapons once, not for each hand. All of the builds need Cannot Parry, as you are still reliant on using the default unarmed parries all characters have (normally, Natural Weapons gives you a "weapon parry" you can use). Also, they probably shouldn't count as weapons been being Parried, meaning biting at an armed foe can easily end up with your face cut by their sword. I eyeball this as Unarmed -20%. If you don't want these effects, of course, don't take the discount - but keep in mind this makes your Natural Weapons better than the Advantages they are replacing.

As for the feet, personally I don't think you should have to pay for the additional Reach - or even damage - that comes "free" with having normal legs, just as a character who has long arms (already paid for by modifying their existing arms, having an increased SM, or whatever) and Arm ST shouldn't have to pay extra for Natural Weapons mounted there to have longer Reach and higher damage. Also, it probably wouldn't be bad to make an Enhancement for the same Natural Weapon to apply to hands and feet; I'd eyeball it at +20% (roughly comparable to having the feet claws as an Alternate Attack to the hand claws).

All this together should get the cost down to something more reasonable. IIRC you still end up more expensive than with the RAW Advantages, but not egregiously so. Alternatively, you could assume the characters already have Crushing Natural Weapons built as above for their bites, kicks, and punches, and just upgrade those to Cutting, which will probably be closer in price to the RAW Advantages. For kicks and punches, you'll probably want to tack on Additional Damage Type (+20% I think) to retain the ability to do Crushing damage with those. Honestly, this might make the Natural Weapons build cost less.

EDIT: Assuming Single and Cannot Parry are worth -30% each, and using a half-level of Reduced Damage to be a straight -1 rather than -1/die, I'm getting something like the following.

Sharp Teeth (Cutting; Cannot Parry -30%; Reduced Damage -15%; Single -30%; Unarmed -20%) [1.4] (note it gets capped at -80%, so you could leave off the damage reduction).

Sharp Claws (Cutting; Feet also +20%; Cannot Parry -30%; Reduced Damage -15%; Unarmed -20%) [3.85]

Which works out to [6], regardless of if you round before or after combining them. You have the option of making this a bit better than the default Advantages, however, as the bite could have up to +20% worth of Enhancements added (or Limitations removed) without costing more than [2].

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Sharp Teeth needs Single - it only gives you the weapons once, not for each hand. All of the builds need Cannot Parry, as you are still reliant on using the default unarmed parries all characters have (normally, Natural Weapons gives you a "weapon parry" you can use). Also, they probably shouldn't count as weapons been being Parried, meaning biting at an armed foe can easily end up with your face cut by their sword. I eyeball this as Unarmed -20%. If you don't want these effects, of course, don't take the discount - but keep in mind this makes your Natural Weapons better than the Advantages they are replacing.

The advantage specifies that by default all limbs of the same kind (specified when purchasing the advantage) are modified, so by RAW Natural Weapon to mouth/head gives modifies only one "limb" unless you have Extra Heads so adding Single wouldn't limit it and limitations that dooes't limit something are not worth points.
Your argument about parries seems valid to me.

Originally Posted by Varyon

As for the feet, personally I don't think you should have to pay for the additional Reach - or even damage - that comes "free" with having normal legs, just as a character who has long arms (already paid for by modifying their existing arms, having an increased SM, or whatever) and Arm ST shouldn't have to pay extra for Natural Weapons mounted there to have longer Reach and higher damage. Also, it probably wouldn't be bad to make an Enhancement for the same Natural Weapon to apply to hands and feet; I'd eyeball it at +20% (roughly comparable to having the feet claws as an Alternate Attack to the hand claws).

RAW says Natural Weapon has reach C, but your point makes sense. I'm not sure about making punches and kicks alternative to each other, needing a Ready maneuver to switch from punches to kicks is harsh...

Originally Posted by Varyon

All this together should get the cost down to something more reasonable. IIRC you still end up more expensive than with the RAW Advantages, but not egregiously so. Alternatively, you could assume the characters already have Crushing Natural Weapons built as above for their bites, kicks, and punches, and just upgrade those to Cutting, which will probably be closer in price to the RAW Advantages. For kicks and punches, you'll probably want to tack on Additional Damage Type (+20% I think) to retain the ability to do Crushing damage with those. Honestly, this might make the Natural Weapons build cost less.

Sharp Teeth: Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%; Cannot Parry, -40%) [3]
Sharp Claw (Hands): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%; Cannot Parry, -40%) [3]
Sharp Claw (Feet): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Cannot Parry, -40%) [5]
Total cost is now 11, much better. Would it be valid to combine the cost of both claws before rounding? 2.1+4.2=6.3 which then is rounded to 7, add the teeth cost and I get a nice [10] total.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

The advantage specifies that by default all limbs of the same kind (specified when purchasing the advantage) are modified, so by RAW Natural Weapon to mouth/head gives modifies only one "limb" unless you have Extra Heads so adding Single wouldn't limit it and limitations that dooes't limit something are not worth points.

ISTR one of the examples being a flaming breath weapon or similar (so only one "limb" by default), and built with Single. You'll want to check your copy, however.

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

I'm not sure about making punches and kicks alternative to each other, needing a Ready maneuver to switch from punches to kicks is harsh...

Alternate Attacks require no Ready to switch between them. Note Additional (or is it Extra?) Damage Type is similar, basically giving you an Alternate Attack with a different damage type for +20% (IIRC).

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

Total cost is now 11, much better. Would it be valid to combine the cost of both claws before rounding? 2.1+4.2=6.3 which then is rounded to 7, add the teeth cost and I get a nice [10] total.

I feel this is a good example of when it's appropriate to combine prior to rounding, yes. You're building one ability - sharp claws - but using two Advantages to build it, simply out of necessity.

[Anthony]

I have some issues with the way natural weapons works, mostly that certain effects such as +1/die and swing damage seem overly encouraged. My preference is to fix Strength-based to be more coherent (being based on strength doesn't make the marginal utility of +1 damage any better), such as:

Strength-Based (Thrust) (+0%) (any innate attack)
Base damage is now Thrust - 1d + (innate attack damage). Innate attack damage must be at least 1d-1.

Strength-Based (Swing) (+0%) (any innate attack)
Base damage is now Swing - 2d + (innate attack damage). Innate attack damage must be at least 2d-2.

Both options are strictly worse at ST 12 or lower, strictly better at ST 15 or higher, but it gets rid of degenerate options such as buying a 1 point innate attack loaded with advantages.

[Rolando]

But why?

...

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Varyon

ISTR one of the examples being a flaming breath weapon or similar (so only one "limb" by default), and built with Single. You'll want to check your copy, however.
Alternate Attacks require no Ready to switch between them. Note Additional (or is it Extra?) Damage Type is similar, basically giving you an Alternate Attack with a different damage type for +20% (IIRC).
I feel this is a good example of when it's appropriate to combine prior to rounding, yes. You're building one ability - sharp claws - but using two Advantages to build it, simply out of necessity.

You're right, Dragon's Breath includes Single. I'm still not entirely sure about making punch/kick into alternative attacks (by RAW it would prevent moves like Dual-Weapon Attack (Punch/Kick)) but I'll go with it:

Sharp Teeth: Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%; Cannot Parry, -40%; Single, -20%) [2]
Sharp Claw (Hands): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Reduced Damage 1, -30%; Cannot Parry, -40%) [1*]
Sharp Claw (Feet): Natural Weapon (Cutting ; Cannot Parry, -40%) [5*]
*Bought as Alternative Attacks.

That's 8 points, pretty much the same as Basic.
I thought about adding Clumsy to the kicks as it should attack at -2, but I think that's just a feature from being a modified part of the feet .

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Rolando

But why?

...

I have to agree. I doubt that anyone is really thinking that Sharp Teeth [1] is too cheap, and it is a heck of a lot simpler.