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Old 02-16-2020, 05:06 PM   #61
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I am saying that view is mistaken because Kromm used quotes around the types of rules he meant,and in doing so excluded things he didn't mean. Those rules are different from weapon tables, being both very specific and having passages that match the actual quotes.
You're wrong. I don't think anybody, even the OP of this tread, agrees with your assessment after reading Kromm's quote from the uFAQ. I'm done with this, because there's not much point in further discussion since it's obvious that the point of disagreement means that nothing short of Kromm dropping in will change your mind, but you are dead wrong.
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Old 02-16-2020, 05:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
You're wrong. I don't think anybody, even the OP of this tread, agrees with your assessment after reading Kromm's quote from the uFAQ.
No, you are wrong.
And it wouldn't make me right or wrong, but in fact, several posters appear to agree with my general position, and many others have not yet had the chance to consider the point just made about the categories of things Kromm quoted.


Quote:
I'm done with this, because there's not much point in further discussion since it's obvious that the point of disagreement means that nothing short of Kromm dropping in will change your mind,
If that's how you feel, what can I say? Though I wonder what, short of Kromm dropping in, would change your mind.
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Old 02-16-2020, 05:41 PM   #63
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
If that's how you feel, what can I say? Though I wonder what, short of Kromm dropping in, would change your mind.
A rule that actually explicitly said that Judo can be used to strike, instead of having to do a convoluted double-reading of "Judo can substitute for DX" and "The Weapon Table lists DX as usable to strike" therefore "If I combine these two rules in a way they obviously weren't meant to be..."

A complete rewrite of the GURPS rules to include Judo along with the three striking skills every time they're mentioned. Or a rewrite of the Judo skill to say it is usable for "Grappling, throws, or striking." Or a posted Errata that does the rewrite.
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Old 02-16-2020, 05:48 PM   #64
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Donny, your argument appears to hinge on the wording of how Kromm listed examples of how exceptions to the rule would work, but how do you reconcile the fact Kromm explicitly called out striking as invalid with your interpretation that striking is valid? The only rule that lends credence to the idea that Judo can be used for striking is the one he was discussing, so it makes little sense to say "Rule A doesn't apply to Action B, except where a rule says otherwise" if "Rule A" is meant to be one of the rules that says otherwise. There's no case where Rule A is in play where Rule A isn't in play, so if Rule A is meant to allow for Action B, there would be no reason to say otherwise.
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:25 PM   #65
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

If you want to get really annoyingly pedantic, nothing says you can attack using a DX roll.
  • Basic p. 271 "Melee weapons are grouped under the skills required to use them. Skill names appear in capital letters, with defaults in parentheses"
  • Basic p. 563 "attack roll: A success roll against a combat skill"

It just happens that you have innate combat skill with natural weapons equal to your DX (or DX-2 for kicks), but the phrase "DX roll" is never actually used in relation to it. I admit, it's a completely preposterous way to read the rules.

On the other hand, do you think "BOXING, BRAWLING, KARATE, or DX" is somehow not "explicitly list[ing] the allowed skills" or that Judo has somehow stealthily snuck into that list without me noticing it?
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:51 PM   #66
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Though I wonder what, short of Kromm dropping in, would change your mind.
Kromm didn't write this rule in the first place, it's much too old for that. I assume Steve Jackson did.

I don't know that it matters who is "wrong" particularly. I wouldn't allow a Judo punch or kick at my table, at least not without an additional Perk, and am fairly sure neither SJ or Kromm would either, but that doesn't mean you can't if you think it makes the game more fun.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:03 PM   #67
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Donny, your argument appears to hinge on the wording of how Kromm listed examples of how exceptions to the rule would work, but how do you reconcile the fact Kromm explicitly called out striking as invalid with your interpretation that striking is valid?
Are you refering to the passage in the uFAQ? Because over several posts I have been explainign that it does NOT rule out striking as invalid. Quite tbe opposite.

Quote:
The only rule that lends credence to the idea that Judo can be used for striking is the one he was discussing, so it makes little sense to say "Rule A doesn't apply to Action B, except where a rule says otherwise" if "Rule A" is meant to be one of the rules that says otherwise. There's no case where Rule A is in play where Rule A isn't in play, so if Rule A is meant to allow for Action B, there would be no reason to say otherwise.
The rule that allows Judo to sub for DX in close combat, including for strikes, is the Judo skill rule cited in the OP.

Apparently Vicky had the same impression at some point and asked Kromm, and Kromm indicated that Judo can't sub for DX when a rule specifies DX and specific skills other than Judo.

I don't think it follows that Vicky asking about "Rule A" means that rule can't be a rule that allows it.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:04 PM   #68
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Kromm didn't write this rule in the first place, it's much too old for that. I assume Steve Jackson did.

I don't know that it matters who is "wrong" particularly. I wouldn't allow a Judo punch or kick at my table, at least not without an additional Perk, and am fairly sure neither SJ or Kromm would either, but that doesn't mean you can't if you think it makes the game more fun.
The other view is that from reading his remarks in the uFAQ, it seems Kromm would allow it.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 02-16-2020 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:39 PM   #69
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I don't know that it matters who is "wrong" particularly. I wouldn't allow a Judo punch or kick at my table, at least not without an additional Perk, and am fairly sure neither SJ or Kromm would either, but that doesn't mean you can't if you think it makes the game more fun.
Knowing how the rules are intended to be used is useful, particularly because it allows one to be mindful when deviating from them, as the chance something will "break" increases the further you get from the intended use.


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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Are you refering to the passage in the uFAQ? Because over several posts I have been explainign that it does NOT rule out striking as invalid. Quite tbe opposite.
Yes, I'm referring to that passage, the one I linked earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The rule that allows Judo to sub for DX in close combat, including for strikes, is the Judo skill rule cited in the OP.

Apparently Vicky had the same impression at some point and asked Kromm, and Kromm indicated that Judo can't sub for DX when a rule specifies DX and specific skills other than Judo.

I don't think it follows that Vicky asking about "Rule A" means that rule can't be a rule that allows it.
"In particular, if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills like "DX or Sumo Wrestling," "DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling," or "DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling" Judo works only if it's called out on the list" is pretty clearly referencing the line before it, "Under those circumstances, Judo cannot replace DX unless a specific rule says so." That is, his "in particular" examples are clarifying how rules that could be the exception would look, not saying "these are the only cases in which what I said before is true." And what he said before was "The line is drawn when strikes (punches, kicks, shoves, slams, etc.) or equipment (readying, dropping, or using) get involved."

The most logical interpretation of his statement is that Judo can't allow you to make a strike (punch/kick/shove/slam/etc) unless a specific rule makes an exception (such as Judo Throw being usable as a "strike" of sorts when used in its damaging form, or if a later book were to allow some sort of strike with Judo). I don't see how you are getting such a bizarre interpretation that Kromm meant the opposite of what he said (specifically, that strikes in close combat can use Judo, when he said they can't without a specific rule saying otherwise; the clear implication, when talking about a certain rule, was that he meant a specific other rule).
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:56 PM   #70
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Apparently Vicky had the same impression at some point and asked Kromm, and Kromm indicated that Judo can't sub for DX when a rule specifies DX and specific skills other than Judo.
Which punching and kicking does. Specifically Brawling, Boxing, Karate, or DX. In fact, I can't find any reference to punching and kicking using DX (Strikers, Melee spells, Telekinesis, Shoves, and Slams have such references in their respective sections) other than the weapons table, which very explicitly calls out allowed skills and does not mention Judo.
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