Iconic Forgotten Realms Spells - As Powers and/or New Skill-based Spells

[mhd]

If I remember correctly, a few 3E designers would like to have gotten rid of all that, as it really breaks the usual spell benchmarks. But alas, nostalgia trumps reason in the RPG market…

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by martinl

I really don't like resisted by IQ. MM in pre4.0 DnD is unerring and has no save. It is good attacking studious types (without counters) since they have low HP and relatively ineffective on brutes since they have loads of HP, and this reverses that.

I get what you mean and I don't really like it either. I'd prefer to avoid resistance roll altogether, but that's not something GURPS allows. At all.

On the other hand, it's IQ+Magery vs. IQ. Not a resistance roll that often succeeds if it's used at close range.

Besides, this build means that it never misses. As long as the spellcaster successfully casts the spell at the target, it hits.

Originally Posted by martinl

What limits MM's usefulness is low DPS, an easy spell counter (shield, or any other force armor), and a moderately cheap magic item counter (Brooch of Shielding).

Unfortunately, in GURPS, these are -5% to -10% limitations. Not at all enough to balance it according to the Powers design system.

Originally Posted by martinl

I'd cut the damage (even if it only left you with 1 pt each missile), give it enough bennies to hit reliably and ignore armor, and add limitations to represent inability to get through force magic of any kind.

This would still come to a massive cost per missile. Given that I used the Modifier system to benchmark the spell relative to other attack spell, it would mean that each missile had to cost 3 FP or something. And Magic Missile definitely should not cost more than Fireball to cast. Especially not if it's doing 1 pt of damage per missile.

Any build that forces me to do:

Innate Attack [Based on IQ (+20%); Cosmic: Ignores DR (+300%); Cosmic: No Active Defence (+300%); Guided (+50%) Increased 1/2D Range x10 (+15%)...]

is going to come out so expensive that any limitations are essentially meaningless. Even Multiplicative Modifiers are still going to leave me with a massive cost.

In D&D, spells don't require a roll to cast. Because of that, a faithful rendering of D&D spells would always require +100% Cosmic: No Die Roll. I, however, do believe that it does not detract from the experience of play in any way to require a roll to succeed in casting a spell. After all, only 17-18 are likely to fail for a dedicated spellcaster.

I ought to add that Magic Missile can't penetrate force defences, though. If I add that, counting it as a -20% limitation, I could legitimately add four level of Reliable. That could just as well be noted as a penalty to the IQ resistance roll. Given that spells are approximately balanced against each other and that Magic Missile can safely come out a little more efficient than Lightning in GURPS accounting terms, I guess I could make the resistance penalised by -5.

That would mean that the overwhelming majority of people would fail it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by mhd

If I remember correctly, a few 3E designers would like to have gotten rid of all that, as it really breaks the usual spell benchmarks. But alas, nostalgia trumps reason in the RPG market…

It's probably pragmatic game balance rather than nostalgia.

In play MM gets judged to be balanced (by me and others at least). If you nerf the spell in one regard (i.e. add a save or a roll to hit) you need to buff the spell in another way (increase damage or similar).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It's probably pragmatic game balance rather than nostalgia.

In play MM gets judged to be balanced (by me and others at least). If you nerf the spell in one regard (i.e. add a save or a roll to hit) you need to buff the spell in another way (increase damage or similar).

I managed to get the resistance roll down to IQ-10.

As far as I can see, this should make it effectively 'always hits'. I mean, spells in GURPS require a roll to cast, whereas spells in D&D do not. So, assuming that you make your IQ+Magery roll, the Magic Missile is going to take effect.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It's probably pragmatic game balance rather than nostalgia.

Like I said, even the designers seem to disagree. Here's Monte Cook: "Everyone knows that magic missiles are better than every other 1st-level attack spell. They're better than most 2nd level spells."

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In play MM gets judged to be balanced (by me and others at least). If you nerf the spell in one regard (i.e. add a save or a roll to hit) you need to buff the spell in another way (increase damage or similar).

I'm not as fluent in D&D spells as I once was, but compared with other spells of its level, MM actually has three things going for it: no to hit roll, no save, force damage. Removing one of those might bring it back to normal, while still having pretty decent stats regarding scaling, target selection and range.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by mhd

Like I said, even the designers seem to disagree. Here's Monte Cook: "Everyone knows that magic missiles are better than every other 1st-level attack spell. They're better than most 2nd level spells."

I'm not as fluent in D&D spells as I once was, but compared with other spells of its level, MM actually has three things going for it: no to hit roll, no save, force damage. Removing one of those might bring it back to normal, while still having pretty decent stats regarding scaling, target selection and range.

In 2e AD&D, Sleep defeated 2d4 foes appropriate to first level adventurers. Magic Missile wounded one of them.

Magic Missile was selected as a 'cool' spell by first level adventurers, if it was selected at all. Apart from Sleep; Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb and Color Spray were all better at low levels.

Magic Missile, however, was a 1st level spell that retained some utility as mages reached higher levels. That was nice.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In 2e AD&D, Sleep defeated 2d4 foes appropriate to first level adventurers. Magic Missile wounded one of them.

And for some kind of reason, Sleep was "fixed" (doubly so in 3.5E), yet magic missile basically remains unchanged. Yes, if I can cast one spell per day (and your DM actually let you select your first spells), I'd take sleep, too. But in the big picture (later levels, wide variety of enemies), magic missile comes of quite favorably. But I don't even want to argue MM vs. Sleep, if you compare it with other direct attack spells, it seems to break some of the spell design rules – again, I'm looking at 3E, where they tried to break off some of the legacy and you can at least argue about design and balancing a bit.

Never mind that we're really digressing from GURPS territory. I think it's interesting that the part that low-level mages shoot magical missiles from their fingers isn't the iconic part, it's the actual mechanics (never misses etc.) that people seem to stick to. So it's more about emulating the system than the implicit setting (or in this case, a specific setting).

[Polydamas]

A lot of the spells of traditional D&D date back to Basic, where the rules were very simple, low level wizards got very few spells per day, and wizards didn't get a free choice of what spells were in their spellbooks (that was a random roll). Only in 3e did every mage get to chose to know whatever first level spells they wanted. I think Icelander's original version of Magic Missile is fine for GURPS, although the limitation against force DR is a nice touch.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Icelander

...Any build that forces me to do:...

I guess this is where we diverge. In my mind the power build rules are entirely optional for GMs, and overruled by GM fiat for players. Sure they're fun and flexible, but if I as GM want something in particular and think it's balanced, well, screw the build rules.

Tangent 1: What's the build rule cost of combat reflexes again?

Tnagent 2: Wouldn't "Skull Spirit" be a better starting point for MM than a missile spell?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by mhd

Like I said, even the designers seem to disagree. Here's Monte Cook: "Everyone knows that magic missiles are better than every other 1st-level attack spell. They're better than most 2nd level spells."

.

This means only that the other "basic" 1st and 2nd level spells aren't very good, expecially at higher character levels. This was changed a little by radically buffing Burning Hands and Scorching Ray. Also fixed somewhat by mdemoting many 1e and 2e low level spells to 0 level cantrips.

As to your other points. It's almost always "to hit" or "save" but not both.

For example, when they did try and come up with a new set of 1st level spells they got the "Lesser Orb" series of elemental spells. Those did 1D8 at 1st level with a roll to hit (the much easier "Ranged Touch" too) but no save.

Even with the damage boost you only saw them being cast by War Mages whoc ould spontaneously choose any of them. That was actually rather Gurps like. :)

The Force damage part doesn't come up til you start meeting the sorts of monsters you see around level 8.

The relative point to adapting FR to Gurps might be that you don't need to emulate D&D mechanics. My casters were quite happy throwing 1D FireBalls or Stone Missiles when their D&D equivalants would have had no real choice but for Magic Missile. The Gurps spells filled the same role and met the same tactical balance that the D&D spell did.

You only need to make your game work. You don't need to make it work _like_ X.