Imperial Marines

[Agemegos]

I'm listing the Imperial marines ranks because they are slightly different from what you are probably used to. Note that the rank codes are not equivalent to US pay grades. Note also that in this system "warrant officers" are senior NCOs, not a tertium quid between enlisted and officer, though they are warranted by the Division Commander and therefore can't be disrated by the CO.

I have added Imperial Navy equivalent ranks, for information.

OTHER RANKS

E-0 Recruit equivalent to Junior Apprentice

Typical billet: First year of training
Numbers: 10,000

E-1 Private (trained) equivalent to Senior Apprentice

Typical billet: second year of training, first-year commando
Numbers: 20,000

E-2 Private (qualified) equivalent to Astronaut (qualified)

Typical billet: commando
Numbers: 124,000

E-3 Private (proficient) equivalent to Astronaut (proficient)

Typical billet: medic, gunner, fitter (electrician), fitter (mechanic), signaller, corpsman, etc.
Numbers: 196,300

E-3 Lance-corporal no equivalent

Typical billet: assistant section leader
Numbers: 66,200

E-4 Corporal equivalent to Leading Astronaut

Typical billet: section leader
Numbers: 47,050

E-5 Sergeant equivalent to Petty Officer

Typical billet: platoon sergeant
Numbers: 14,000

E-6 Staff Sergeant equivalent to Chief Petty Officer

Typical billet: platoon sergeant (in a specialist platoon), quartermaster-sergeant (to a company, battalion, or regiment)
Numbers: 6,500

E-7 Warrant Officer equivalent to Warrant Officer

Typical billet: colour sergeant (SNCO of a company)
Numbers: 4,500

E-8 Senior Warrant Officer equivalent to Senior Warrant Officer

Typical billet: sergeant-major (SNCO of a battalion)
Numbers: 782

E-9 Chief Warrant Officer equivalent to Master Warrant Officer

Typical billet: RSM (SNCO of a regiment), Command Sergeant Major
Numbers: 262

OFFICERS

O-0 Officer cadet equivalent to Officer cadet

Typical billet: student at the Marines Academy
Numbers: 1,650

O-1 Ensign equivalent to Midshipman

Typical billet: intern platoon commander
Numbers: 900

O-2 Sublieutenant equivalent to Sublieutenant

Typical billet: commando platoon commander
Numbers: 9,600

O-3 Lieutenant equivalent to Lieutenant

Typical billet: OC detached platoon; company 2ic; battalion ops officer (HQ platoon commander); regimental adjutant, medical officer, quartermaster, paymaster, or provost-marshal; aide or GSO to a colonel or brigadier; a-d-c or secretary to a general officer
Numbers: 6,540

O-4 Lieutenant-major equivalent to Lieutenant-commander

Typical billet: Company commander, Battalion 2ic, regimental operations officer
Numbers: 4,490

O-5 Major equivalent to Commander

Typical billet: Battalion commander, regiment 2ic, divisional staff
Numbers: 1,750

O-6 Colonel equivalent to Captain

Typical billet: regimental CO; brigade 2ic; chief of staff to a GOC; exec to a deputy commander of general rank; general staff officer
Numbers: 477

O-7 Brigadier equivalent to Commodore

Typical billet: Brigade commander, staff
Numbers: 197

O-8 Major-general equivalent to Rear Admiral

Typical billet: GOC (division) (i.e. Sector marines commandant), deputy to a vice-general, other general staff officer.
Numbers: 59

O-9 Vice-general equivalent to Vice-admiral

Typical billet: Surgeon-general, Judge-advocate general, Provost-general, Chief of Intelligence, Director-general of Training, Director-general of recruitment, Director-general of procurement, deputy to a general
Numbers: 11

O-10 General equivalent to Admiral

Typical billet: Deputy Commandant of the Imperial Marines; Adjutant-general, Quartermaster-general, Chief of General Operations
Numbers: 4

O-11 General-commandant equivalent to Admiral of the Fleet

Typical billet: Commandant of the Imperial Marines
Numbers: 1

[Agemegos]

Graphic design is not my strong suit, but I have been working on designing a set of officers' insignia of rank for FLAT BLACK, and I find myself torn between three solutions. I can't post images on this forum of course, but I have linked files that contain mock-ups.

Note that these are the insignia that naval and marines officers wear in gold and enamel versions on the epaulettes of their dress and service uniforms; they are also represented in subdued colours against drab and cammo-pattern backings in the middles of the chest of their combat uniforms, on rank slides in shirtsleeve order, etc. Stripes of braid are worn around the cuffs of certain jackets and on the shoulder-straps of overcoats, and this "distinction lace" is more recognised as insignia of rank in the navy. But distinction lace is not worn on combat armour or the field uniforms that marines often wear, so these rather than the strips of braid are considered marines officer's insignia.

In the graphics files linked here I have used a British-style "St. Edward's" crown, and a German-stye four-pointed star. These are stand-in symbols. The graphics are mock-ups, not finished art.


Solution #1 (insignia_euro_2.png)

My first solution is based on the system used by many European members of NATO. It's perhaps most like the Spanish system (in that it goes up to five stars in the general officers) and the Greek system (in that its categorical symbol for general officers adds a crossed-sword-and-baton below the categorical symbol for field officers rather than replacing it).

Company officers O-1 to O-3 are distinguished by one, two, or three stars. There is a categorical symbol for field officers (in this case, a crown), and ranks O-4 to O-6 wear that distinguished by one, two, or three stars. Then there is a further categorical symbol for general officers (in this case a crossed baton and sword are added below the crown, producing a symbol like that used in this place in the Canadian system), and ranks O-7 to O-9 are distinguished again by one, two, or three stars. Rank O-10 is rather unsystematically given four stars below the crown and crossed-sword-and-baton, and rank O-11 gets five.

These insignia are systematic and have strong historical roots in current European practice. They distinguish clearly between company, field, and general officers. But the insignia for the higher ranks of general officers are rather busy and crowded.

Solution #2 (insignia_brit.png)

My second solution is the same as the first up to O-6 (colonel, captain). From brigadier general upwards it switches to the insignia used by general officers in the British army up until 1922. That makes it like British insignia of the early 20th century except that each rank of field officers has one extra star.

These insignia aren't as systematic as the first, and their historical roots are muddled (European to O-6, British except at O-4 to O-6). But they are clear enough, and the general officers' insignia are much cleaner graphic design.

Solution #3 (insignia_mod.png)

My third solution is the same as the others up to O-6, and there it diverges by treating a brigadier as a very senior field officer (wearing a crown and four stars) instead of as a very junior general officer. That's consistent with British and Commonwealth practice since 1922 — the way the Imperial Marines use brigadiers they are neither regimental officers nor hold fixed major commands, so it could go either way — and it reduces overcrowding of ranks in the category of general officers. Giving O-8 to O-10 officers one, two, and three stars under the Canadian-style "general" symbol allows a manageable four stars to the O-11 Commandant of the Imperial Marines.

This system is perhaps the most systematic, though it does invite the interpolation of a rank (of "oberleutnant", perhaps) between O-3 and O-4. And the simplification of the generals' insignia comes at the expense of the brigadiers'

I think the first and second are the main contenders. Any comments or suggestions?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

I think the first and second are the main contenders. Any comments or suggestions?

The colonel insignia would look less crowded if they used smaller stars, in much the same way as a WWII British Brigadier did.

But I think the actual decision should relate to the personality of the first O-11 commandant of the Imperial Marines. He or she will have been the one with the final say on the matter.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The colonel insignia would look less crowded if they used smaller stars, in much the same way as a WWII British Brigadier did.

The crowns ought to be larger, too.

Originally Posted by johndallman

I think the actual decision should relate to the personality of the first O-11 commandant of the Imperial Marines. He or she will have been the one with the final say on the matter.

Well, the Imperial Marines were organised by the Empire's great systematiser, Chairman Akiko Montesino, who would have sketched what she wanted to her planning staff, chosen among their recommendations, and then handed draft legislation over to her lobbying staff to get it through the Senate. At the time the Empire didn't have any single military organisation bigger than about 2,000 troops, though it must have had about 100,000 boarding specialists, security troops, strike force members etc. I guess that means that the insignia would be devised by tidy-minded, systematising bureaucrats, and we ought to expect extreme and even innovating regularity. Perhaps something like this:

Option #4 (insignia_marserv.png)

This system is based on European norms because they are lovely and systematic. It deals with the crowding of general-officer ranks and insignia by extending the system to a fourth category, implicitly dividing flag and general officers into a lower division (O-7 to O-9) and a division of senior admirals and generals (O-10 & O-11).

• Company-officer (O1 – O3) insignia are distinguished by the lack of any categorical mark.
• Field-officer (O4 – O6) insignia are distinguished by a crown above the stars.
• General-officer (O7 – O9) insignia are distinguished by a crossed-sword-and-baton below the stars.
• Senior generals' insignia are distinguished by having a crown above the stars and a crossed-sword-and-baton below them.
  
• Within each category specific ranks are distinguished by one, two, or three stars.

The result is a system of insignia that are perfectly systematic and reasonably graphically clean. It's not as bold as Option #2, but on the other hand it is readily extensible.

[johndallman]

That looks good - and allows for an ubergeneral rank, to be held by the Emperor.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Option #4 (insignia_marserv.png)

I like this version the best. It has a very imperial elegant simplicity. I'm curious about the crowns though as the Empire doesn't have one, wouldn't another symbol be appropriate. Luna, perhaps?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I like this version the best.

How does it look in scarlet and gold on navy backing? insignia_mardress.png. The stars are a bit big for the colonel, vice-general, and general-commandant, I suppose.

It has a very imperial elegant simplicity. I'm curious about the crowns though as the Empire doesn't have one, wouldn't another symbol be appropriate. Luna, perhaps?

Possibly, though you can use a picture of a crown as a symbol of authority without there actually being a crown. I don't suppose that Imperial marines officers actually burden themselves with swords and batons either. And the idea of a pistol as the symbol of a field officer or a cocktail glass as the symbol of a general officer is a bit radical for me.

[Puppetminion]

A suggestion from the peanut galley for option 4:
To increase ease of interpretation (as opposed to memorisation) how about rather than a crown something else (rocket ship?) for the senior general. It means you only have to look for one indicator to differentiate

Eg
Officer: stars
Junior officer: only stars
Field officer: crown
General officer: crossed sword & baton
Senior general: rocket ship
And okay, junior general crossed sword & baton without the ship, but that should matter less than having to check that a field officer is not in fact a senior general.

[Agemegos]

How about this for a compromise? insignia_systematic.png.

[Agemegos]

Righto this is starting to look like a complete set of Imperial insignia of rank, except that I haven't found a suitable source for the insignia of a master chief petty officer.