The odd difference among social skills

[Refplace]

The skill of the week thread which is about Streetwise this week brought to mind how odd some of the social skills are.

Some have a built in knowledge of cultural norms (or sub culture) and include things like symbols, Heraldry, colors, flags, uniforms, etc and area knowledge like locations and even laws.
Others just focus on how to talk to someone in certain circumstances.

Streeetwise and Savior Faire are pretty broad, though Savoir Faire requires a specilaity.
Carousing, Fast Talk, Diplomacy and Sex Appeal are much more limited in scope.

Anyone else feel thisis a bit odd? Not really broken just not perfectly balanced or symmetrical.

[Tyneras]

I always pictured (at a gut level) streetwise being a Savoir Faire (area, criminal) with a themed name.

Also, a lot of GURPS skills that overlap have accumulated. We could probably trim a good 25% by going over them with a fine toothed comb Alternate Gun Specialties (Pyramid 3/65) style.

[Flyndaran]

Streetwise and Savoir Faire are about WHO you socialize with, while the others are more about HOW you socialize.
Diplomacy is diplomatic whether you're talking to Joe Bartender, Joe Biden, or Joe the barely sapient tiger.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

I always pictured (at a gut level) streetwise being a Savoir Faire (area, criminal) with a themed name.

Also, a lot of GURPS skills that overlap have accumulated. We could probably trim a good 25% by going over them with a fine toothed comb Alternate Gun Specialties (Pyramid 3/65) style.

I'm really glad that Dungeon Fantasy has done away with needing a half dozen skills to search a room. Anyone else remember when you needed Architecture to find secret doors.

[Railstar]

Another aspect of skills like Savoir-Faire or Streetwise is the ideas of working within a role or persona, for instance, I apparently get complimented a lot on my manner in customer service… but in a less defined social situation, I stumble with small talk, I have no idea what to say, and thinking up the right words for the situation becomes a struggle in itself.

To me, skill overlap is not necessarily a bad thing – I like when Area Knowledge, Streetwise or Urban Survival could all work for the task you are looking for. I also like when Savoir-Faire or Carousing can cover a social situation. For instance, Savoir-Faire could be used to intimidate someone if you use your position or contacts or throwing names around to get it done... Intimidation works with that method, but works with other methods as well.

The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by Railstar

The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.

And Social Engineering proposes Complementary Skills mechanics for such cases.

[Skarg]

I think Streetwise makes most sense if it is taken as a general social skill, just as Diplomacy, Acting, Leadership, and Fast Talk are. I think it's a slight misnomer too because I think it should be usable outside the "street" - it should cover savvy and clever observation and action in other settings.

However I think all of those general skills should often also have Area/Social knowledge taken into account.

If someone moves to a place with an unfamiliar culture, all their social skills are going to have familiarity problems. A very wise "street" dweller in Chicago is going to have major issues if he wakes up in London. And an actual Diplomat probably puts more study into learning knowledge of specific cultures and protocols and situations than the general social skill of Diplomacy.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Railstar

The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.

There are times when I go, "Give me a roll at the best of your Architecture or Search skills. If you have both, you can roll the lower one as a complementary." This lets folks who have one but not the other have a shot at contributing, while those with both aren't going "why did I take both if I didn't need them?"

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

There are times when I go, "Give me a roll at the best of your Architecture or Search skills. If you have both, you can roll the lower one as a complementary." This lets folks who have one but not the other have a shot at contributing, while those with both aren't going "why did I take both if I didn't need them?"

Well, yeah, I've never required anyone to have architecture to search for secret doors, even when Kromm said we did. And I'm glad he changed his mind, at least for the narrow genre of DF. But my regular fantasy doesn't need that kind of skill bloat. The only people that should have Architecture are people that design building professionally.

Though I note now that it is Vision, Observation, or Traps, not Search, my mistake.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Some have a built in knowledge of cultural norms (or sub culture) and include things like symbols, Heraldry, colors, flags, uniforms, etc and area knowledge like locations and even laws.
Others just focus on how to talk to someone in certain circumstances.

All of them are reliant on ability to navigate social norms, which is a combination of having the skill and having the contextually appropriate Cultural Familiarity.

Heraldry, Area Knowledge, and Law are their own skills. Certain forms of Savoir Faire may include a little bit (Heraldry has a default from SF(High Society), and SF(Military) implies some coverage of legally-mandated military codes of conduct), but not a lot.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Streeetwise and Savior Faire are pretty broad, though Savoir Faire requires a specilaity.
Carousing, Fast Talk, Diplomacy and Sex Appeal are much more limited in scope.

I'd say the opposite! Streetwise and Savoir Faire are narrow - they're very inappropriate Influence skills outside the specific social context they're meant for.

Carousing is a special case, it's not actually an influence skill except (per Social Engineering p32) in very limited use-case. Being a complementary skill skill of sorts is its main functionality. It does have pretty specific required context, but it cuts across most social lines - some individuals and a very few subgroups might never be targets for Carousing but most can be if you're able to put yourself at the right occasion for it. (Why the same skill covers everyone's idea of partying hard...eh.) And it's an HT/E skill.

Fast Talk and Diplomacy are as close to universal as you can get. Diplomacy is the influence skill whose closest thing to a downside is that it can't be used in active combat. And that it's a Hard skill, of course. Fast Talk applies to anyone anytime (unless they're immune to influence skills of course), though it burns bridges...hopefully behind you! There might be some contexts where one or both of them is specifically penalized, but I'd expect those to be rare.

Sex Appeal usually will only be applicable to somewhere in the neighborhood of half the population (depending on the frequency of bi/omni-sexuality vs. asexuality), at least without some means of switching your presentation. Depending on social structures (gender segregation of organizations and level of openness about sexual orientation) the set of targets available to a PC of a particular sex may seem much more or much less useful. That said, it's otherwise pretty general.

(Tangent - I feel like there must be rules about resistance to Influence rolls for targets in a group that I'm not finding...)