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Old 12-02-2009, 06:25 PM   #1
Exxar
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Default Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

I have two questions on this topic:

1) It is stated in the writeup that Quick-Shot (High-Tech p. 252) cannot exceed the prerequisite skill (and compensate more than a -6 penalty for Rapid Strike). But considering the possibility of performing more than 2 attacks with Rapid Strike with increasing penalties, would you consider it appropriate to improve the technique even further so that it can for example entirely negate a -12 penalty from performing 3 attacks via Rapid Strike? Or is the improvement specifically capped at 6 for some reason?

2) Since shootists have a technique that lessens their Rapid Strike penalty no matter what attacks they perform with it, would you consider it appropriate that melee weapon users also get such a technique? They already have combinations , but those are specifically limited to a predetermined combination of attacks. I know that works as a realistic option, but I was wondering if a cinematic option akin to Quick-Shot would be appropriate.

I'm interested in your various opinions on this.

Last edited by Exxar; 12-05-2009 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

Nah. The Quick-Shoot penalty and Rapid-Strike penalty are two completely seperate things. A technique to reduce the penalty for one never affects the other. More specifically, the "cap" to techniques is a cap prior to any other modifiers. It would be no more fair to let the technique excede the cap for countering Rapid Strike penalties than it would be to offset darkness penalties.

If you want to reduce the penalty for Rapid Strike, that's a seperate technique (Combinations). You can always get both.

As for melee, no, I don't think you should have the equivelant of Quick Shooting. Quick Shooting is still a single attack with higher RoF, and therefor, less control. There isn't a melee equivelant that would be distinct from Rapid Strike or Combinations. If you're going cinematic and want multiple attacks like that, get Extra Attacks or use the optional rules allowing more attacks. TBaM/WM and Combinations make for some nasty rapid-fire melee attacks.
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Old 12-03-2009, 04:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
Nah. The Quick-Shoot penalty and Rapid-Strike penalty are two completely seperate things. A technique to reduce the penalty for one never affects the other. More specifically, the "cap" to techniques is a cap prior to any other modifiers. It would be no more fair to let the technique excede the cap for countering Rapid Strike penalties than it would be to offset darkness penalties.

If you want to reduce the penalty for Rapid Strike, that's a seperate technique (Combinations). You can always get both.
I was not talking about Quick-Shot alleviating the penalty for (melee) Rapid Strike. My point was that Ranged Rapid Strike has a technique that negates its penalties no matter the specific attacks you perform with it, while melee Rapid Strike doesn't (it only has combinations which negate penalties of a specific sequence of attacks). I'm asking why is that so, and for opinions on whether it would be appropriate, balanced and/or reasonable to use a cinematic technique functionally identical to Quick-Shot for melee attacks.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
As for melee, no, I don't think you should have the equivelant of Quick Shooting. Quick Shooting is still a single attack with higher RoF, and therefor, less control. There isn't a melee equivelant that would be distinct from Rapid Strike or Combinations. If you're going cinematic and want multiple attacks like that, get Extra Attacks or use the optional rules allowing more attacks. TBaM/WM and Combinations make for some nasty rapid-fire melee attacks.
I think we're on completely different tracks here. I'm not trying to emulate RoF with melee attacks.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

If youre referring to Bows and quick shooting than maybe not.It would look weird to shoot 3 arrows from Bow simultaneously,2 seem fine enough.

Also I think that melee rapid strike is more realistic than Bow dual weapon attack.

Guinness record of full contact punches / minute turns out to 5,7 punches/second,imagining same for shooting arrows is even beyond Legolas ;)
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:11 AM   #5
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

I'm referring to all of them - melee Rapid Strikes, Ranged Rapid Strikes with thrown and missile weapons, as well as Rapid Strikes with firearms :)

In RAW it is firmly established for all of them as a combat option that you can make as many of them as you have skill (due to a cumulative -6 or -3 penalty), but the way the techniques that offset those penalties are written leaves a lot of holes.

Last edited by Exxar; 12-04-2009 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

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Originally Posted by Exxar View Post
In RAW it is firmly established for all of them as a combat option that you can make as many of them as you have skill (due to a cumulative -6 or -3 penalty), but the way the techniques that offset those penalties are written leaves a lot of holes.
Not so. RAW, you can Rapid Strike only once (turning one attack into two), but Martial Arts gives the option of building a Combination for Weapon Masters or those Trained By a Master that includes turning one attack into three for -6, four for -9, etc.
It is NOT a general option.
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

And take it from someone who has tried it in his current game that way. It is scarry how fast players figure out that they can make five or six attacks in a single round...
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

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Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
Not so. RAW, you can Rapid Strike only once (turning one attack into two), but Martial Arts gives the option of building a Combination for Weapon Masters or those Trained By a Master that includes turning one attack into three for -6, four for -9, etc.
It is NOT a general option.
Combinations can have either 2 or 3 attacks, and only TBaM or WM can use 3 attacks at default. A Combination with three attacks can be built as DW + Rapid Strike, but then you are limited by the nature of combinations themselves.

Also the choice is between DW, Rapid Strike or Combination, so if you want to attack 4 times you need to use Rapid Strike.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

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Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
Not so. RAW, you can Rapid Strike only once (turning one attack into two), but Martial Arts gives the option of building a Combination for Weapon Masters or those Trained By a Master that includes turning one attack into three for -6, four for -9, etc.
It is NOT a general option.
I was under the impression that RAW is everything written in the official supplements, whether optional or obligatory. Rules As Written, not Non-Optional Rules As Written In Basic Set.

Anyway, I'm not interested in what's RAW and what isn't. I'm interested in the stuff that is written in various supplements - why isn't it generic? Is it because of some reasonable explanation or just an oversight/unclear explanation because of rules being published in different supplements...

Last edited by Exxar; 12-05-2009 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: Quick-Shot/Rapid Strike/combinations questions

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I was under the impression that RAW is everything written in the official supplements, whether optional or obligatory. Rules As Written, not Non-Optional Rules As Written In Basic Set.

Anyway, I'm not interested in what's RAW and what isn't. I'm interested in the stuff that is written in various supplements - why isn't it generic? Is it because of some reasonable explanation or just an oversight/unclear explanation because of rules being published in different supplements...
The latter I think. Both High-Tech and Martial Arts came out in the same year, and I think Martial Arts was first. Also Gun-Fu repeats High-Techs phrasing, so this seems like a case of melee =/= ranged. Note that Rapid Striking Thrown weapons stresses the inclusion of extended Rapid Strike, meaning it probably shouldn't be taken as general for Ranged Attacks
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