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Old 09-19-2013, 03:25 AM   #141
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Default Re: Flat Black

It looks as though Seeonee is the economic gorilla as at 606 PDT. Here's a table of the biggest economies, their dev. levels, their nominal GDP (in crowns) and the share their GDP makes of total gross product.
Seeonee (8.5) 894.1E+12 (11.67%)
New Athens (7.9) 366.4E+12 (4.78%)
Iter (8.5) 344.5E+12 (4.50%)
Tau Ceti (8.5) 342.6E+12 (4.47%)
Margulis (7) 270.1E+12 (3.53%)
Barutanah (8) 221.6E+12 (2.89%)
New Benin (7.7) 204.8E+12 (2.67%)
Sangreal (7.4) 190.0E+12 (2.48%)
Ursula (7.4) 184.2E+12 (2.40%)
Svarga (8) 174.1E+12 (2.27%)
Todos Santos (8.5) 166.2E+12 (2.17%)
Paradise III (7.5) 165.6E+12 (2.16%)
Egalité (7.8) 164.3E+12 (2.14%)
Stockhausen (8) 142.5E+12 (1.86%)
Krishna (7.5) 130.0E+12 (1.70%)
Maui (7.3) 126.4E+12 (1.65%)
Tian Longshan (6.9) 123.2E+12 (1.61%)
Alcantara (7.1) 113.1E+12 (1.48%)
Simanta (8.5) 108.9E+12 (1.42%)
Rudra (7.9) 102.8E+12 (1.34%)
Mundonova (7.7) 91.8E+12 (1.20%)
Iram (7.8) 86.2E+12 (1.12%)
Pacisordine (7.5) 83.3E+12 (1.09%)
Paragon (7.3) 82.5E+12 (1.08%)
Jingtu (7.7) 81.6E+12 (1.07%)
Olympus (7.5) 79.1E+12 (1.03%)
Hippodamia (6.8) 77.1E+12 (1.01%)
Imperial Spaceways revenues are probably on the close order of 37.7E+12 crowns, which is small change, but add in the trading and banking profits and ten planets per year in real estate for total Imperial revenues.

Mean nominal GDP per head (for the primary colonies, I haven't done the new worlds yet) is ₢10,500, about G$42,000. Compared to the standard G$67,000 of TL10 that is Struggling.

Mean real GDP per head (for the primary colonies) is ¤15,500.
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:21 AM   #142
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In 532 Seeonee was even more frightening. (Percentages take into account only the 68 colonies engaged in commerce with the Empire.
  1. Seeonee (7.8): pop. 16.6 E+9 (8.50%), GDP 454.8 E+12 (26.75%)
  2. Tau Ceti (7.5): pop. 5.0 E+9 (2.57%), GDP 102.9 E+12 (6.05%)
  3. Tian Longshan (6.6): pop. 13.2 E+9 (6.79%), GDP 102.4 E+12 (6.02%)
  4. Sangreal (6.7): pop. 9.5 E+9 (4.87%), GDP 83.8 E+12 (4.93%)
  5. Iter (7.4): pop. 4.2 E+9 (2.16%), GDP 73.9 E+12 (4.35%)
  6. Ursula (6.6): pop. 7.7 E+9 (3.94%), GDP 64.9 E+12 (3.82%)
  7. New Athens (6.7): pop. 6.8 E+9 (3.49%), GDP 61.2 E+12 (3.60%)
  8. Barutanah (7): pop. 4.6 E+9 (2.36%), GDP 58.8 E+12 (3.46%)
  9. Svarga (7): pop. 4.8 E+9 (2.46%), GDP 56.4 E+12 (3.32%)
  10. Margulis (6.5): pop. 7.1 E+9 (3.62%), GDP 50.6 E+12 (2.98%)
  11. New Benin (6.4): pop. 6.5 E+9 (3.33%), GDP 43.3 E+12 (2.54%)
  12. Stockhausen (7): pop. 3.5 E+9 (1.78%), GDP 42.9 E+12 (2.53%)
  13. Egalité (6.7): pop. 4.5 E+9 (2.32%), GDP 39.4 E+12 (2.32%)
  14. Todos Santos (7.5): pop. 1.9 E+9 (1.00%), GDP 38.3 E+12 (2.25%)
  15. Farfalle (6.7): pop. 3.4 E+9 (1.72%), GDP 28.5 E+12 (1.68%)
  16. Paradise III (6.4): pop. 4.1 E+9 (2.10%), GDP 28.1 E+12 (1.65%)
  17. Hippodamia (6.3): pop. 4.5 E+9 (2.31%), GDP 25.4 E+12 (1.49%)
  18. Mundonova (6.6): pop. 3.2 E+9 (1.64%), GDP 25.0 E+12 (1.47%)
  19. New Earth (7.5): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.60%), GDP 24.2 E+12 (1.42%)
  20. Bonanza (5.8): pop. 6.2 E+9 (3.19%), GDP 22.8 E+12 (1.34%)
  21. Targan (5.8): pop. 6.2 E+9 (3.18%), GDP 20.9 E+12 (1.23%)
  22. Pacisordine (6.5): pop. 2.7 E+9 (1.39%), GDP 19.1 E+12 (1.13%)
  23. Olympus (6.2): pop. 2.8 E+9 (1.42%), GDP 15.0 E+12 (0.88%)
  24. Simanta (7): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.64%), GDP 15.0 E+12 (0.88%)
  25. Jingtu (6.2): pop. 2.6 E+9 (1.36%), GDP 14.5 E+12 (0.85%)
  26. Hurley (6.1): pop. 2.9 E+9 (1.47%), GDP 14.1 E+12 (0.83%)
  27. New Rome (7.1): pop. 998.1 E+6 (0.51%), GDP 13.5 E+12 (0.79%)
  28. Ladon (7): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.56%), GDP 13.5 E+12 (0.79%)
  29. Alhurr (6.3): pop. 2.3 E+9 (1.20%), GDP 13.1 E+12 (0.77%)
  30. Maitreya (6.3): pop. 2.3 E+9 (1.20%), GDP 13.1 E+12 (0.77%)
  31. Lohengrin (6.3): pop. 2.1 E+9 (1.09%), GDP 12.7 E+12 (0.75%)
  32. Iram (6.4): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.01%), GDP 12.7 E+12 (0.75%)
  33. Hypatia (6.2): pop. 2.2 E+9 (1.14%), GDP 11.4 E+12 (0.67%)
  34. Ultima Thule (6.3): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.01%), GDP 11.3 E+12 (0.66%)
  35. Aeneas (6.8): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.57%), GDP 10.8 E+12 (0.64%)
  36. Neapolis (6.1): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.04%), GDP 10.1 E+12 (0.60%)
  37. Austral Eden (6.3): pop. 1.6 E+9 (0.80%), GDP 9.3 E+12 (0.55%)
  38. New Eden (5.5): pop. 3.6 E+9 (1.86%), GDP 8.9 E+12 (0.52%)
  39. Covenant (4.8): pop. 4.7 E+9 (2.43%), GDP 6.0 E+12 (0.35%)
  40. Bakunin (6.2): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.55%), GDP 5.6 E+12 (0.33%)
  41. Vasileo & Orinoco (5.9): pop. 1.4 E+9 (0.71%), GDP 5.4 E+12 (0.32%)
  42. Rungsutu (6.2): pop. 364.3 E+6 (0.19%), GDP 1.8 E+12 (0.11%)
  43. Fureidis (5.9): pop. 454.7 E+6 (0.23%), GDP 1.8 E+12 (0.10%)
  44. Persatuan (4.9): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.58%), GDP 1.5 E+12 (0.09%)
  45. Bhima (4.3): pop. 1.9 E+9 (1.00%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  46. Broadmeadow (4.6): pop. 1.4 E+9 (0.69%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  47. Navabharata (4.2): pop. 2.2 E+9 (1.11%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  48. Khemet (4.3): pop. 1.7 E+9 (0.85%), GDP 1.3 E+12 (0.08%)
  49. Terranova (5.7): pop. 346.2 E+6 (0.18%), GDP 1.1 E+12 (0.06%)
  50. Paraíso (3.2): pop. 3.2 E+9 (1.66%), GDP 736.3 E+9 (0.04%)
  51. Ashok (4.5): pop. 719.3 E+6 (0.37%), GDP 667.3 E+9 (0.04%)
  52. Persephone (3.1): pop. 2.8 E+9 (1.44%), GDP 580.7 E+9 (0.03%)
  53. Xin Tian Di (2.7): pop. 3.3 E+9 (1.71%), GDP 460.2 E+9 (0.03%)
  54. Hijra (3.9): pop. 864.2 E+6 (0.44%), GDP 412.5 E+9 (0.02%)
  55. Pentecost (3.6): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.57%), GDP 390.0 E+9 (0.02%)
  56. New Polynesia (5.5): pop. 130.4 E+6 (0.07%), GDP 327.4 E+9 (0.02%)
  57. New Huntington (3.4): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.56%), GDP 311.7 E+9 (0.02%)
  58. Liberty (3.8): pop. 676.0 E+6 (0.35%), GDP 280.9 E+9 (0.02%)
  59. Xanadu (3.2): pop. 981.7 E+6 (0.50%), GDP 237.2 E+9 (0.01%)
  60. Argolid (2.4): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.61%), GDP 127.7 E+9 (0.01%)
  61. Cockaigne (2.8): pop. 531.8 E+6 (0.27%), GDP 83.4 E+9 (0.00%)
  62. Neuheim (3.2): pop. 246.6 E+6 (0.13%), GDP 58.1 E+9 (0.00%)
  63. Borlung (4): pop. 106.9 E+6 (0.05%), GDP 57.9 E+9 (0.00%)
  64. Xindalu (2.8): pop. 303.1 E+6 (0.16%), GDP 48.9 E+9 (0.00%)
  65. Emmaus (2.1): pop. 521.1 E+6 (0.27%), GDP 37.6 E+9 (0.00%)
  66. Durack (2.5): pop. 152.6 E+6 (0.08%), GDP 17.5 E+9 (0.00%)
  67. New Lombok (2.7): pop. 109.2 E+6 (0.06%), GDP 15.5 E+9 (0.00%)
  68. Lahar (3): pop. 57.0 E+6 (0.03%), GDP 11.2 E+9 (0.00%)

I'm going to have to have to work out why Seeonee comes out as such a monster and consider adjusting the model.
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:29 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
In 532 Seeonee was even more frightening. (Percentages take into account only the 68 colonies engaged in commerce with the Empire.
Here are those figures again, sorted by population.
  1. Seeonee (7.8): pop. 16.6 E+9 (8.50%), GDP 454.8 E+12 (26.75%)
  2. Tian Longshan (6.6): pop. 13.2 E+9 (6.79%), GDP 102.4 E+12 (6.02%)
  3. Sangreal (6.7): pop. 9.5 E+9 (4.87%), GDP 83.8 E+12 (4.93%)
  4. Ursula (6.6): pop. 7.7 E+9 (3.94%), GDP 64.9 E+12 (3.82%)
  5. Margulis (6.5): pop. 7.1 E+9 (3.62%), GDP 50.6 E+12 (2.98%)
  6. New Athens (6.7): pop. 6.8 E+9 (3.49%), GDP 61.2 E+12 (3.60%)
  7. New Benin (6.4): pop. 6.5 E+9 (3.33%), GDP 43.3 E+12 (2.54%)
  8. Bonanza (5.8): pop. 6.2 E+9 (3.19%), GDP 22.8 E+12 (1.34%)
  9. Targan (5.8): pop. 6.2 E+9 (3.18%), GDP 20.9 E+12 (1.23%)
  10. Tau Ceti (7.5): pop. 5.0 E+9 (2.57%), GDP 102.9 E+12 (6.05%)
  11. Svarga (7): pop. 4.8 E+9 (2.46%), GDP 56.4 E+12 (3.32%)
  12. Covenant (4.8): pop. 4.7 E+9 (2.43%), GDP 6.0 E+12 (0.35%)
  13. Barutanah (7): pop. 4.6 E+9 (2.36%), GDP 58.8 E+12 (3.46%)
  14. Egalité (6.7): pop. 4.5 E+9 (2.32%), GDP 39.4 E+12 (2.32%)
  15. Hippodamia (6.3): pop. 4.5 E+9 (2.31%), GDP 25.4 E+12 (1.49%)
  16. Iter (7.4): pop. 4.2 E+9 (2.16%), GDP 73.9 E+12 (4.35%)
  17. Paradise III (6.4): pop. 4.1 E+9 (2.10%), GDP 28.1 E+12 (1.65%)
  18. New Eden (5.5): pop. 3.6 E+9 (1.86%), GDP 8.9 E+12 (0.52%)
  19. Stockhausen (7): pop. 3.5 E+9 (1.78%), GDP 42.9 E+12 (2.53%)
  20. Farfalle (6.7): pop. 3.4 E+9 (1.72%), GDP 28.5 E+12 (1.68%)
  21. Xin Tian Di (2.7): pop. 3.3 E+9 (1.71%), GDP 460.2 E+9 (0.03%)
  22. Paraíso (3.2): pop. 3.2 E+9 (1.66%), GDP 736.3 E+9 (0.04%)
  23. Mundonova (6.6): pop. 3.2 E+9 (1.64%), GDP 25.0 E+12 (1.47%)
  24. Hurley (6.1): pop. 2.9 E+9 (1.47%), GDP 14.1 E+12 (0.83%)
  25. Persephone (3.1): pop. 2.8 E+9 (1.44%), GDP 580.7 E+9 (0.03%)
  26. Olympus (6.2): pop. 2.8 E+9 (1.42%), GDP 15.0 E+12 (0.88%)
  27. Pacisordine (6.5): pop. 2.7 E+9 (1.39%), GDP 19.1 E+12 (1.13%)
  28. Jingtu (6.2): pop. 2.6 E+9 (1.36%), GDP 14.5 E+12 (0.85%)
  29. Maitreya (6.3): pop. 2.3 E+9 (1.20%), GDP 13.1 E+12 (0.77%)
  30. Alhurr (6.3): pop. 2.3 E+9 (1.20%), GDP 13.1 E+12 (0.77%)
  31. Hypatia (6.2): pop. 2.2 E+9 (1.14%), GDP 11.4 E+12 (0.67%)
  32. Navabharata (4.2): pop. 2.2 E+9 (1.11%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  33. Lohengrin (6.3): pop. 2.1 E+9 (1.09%), GDP 12.7 E+12 (0.75%)
  34. Neapolis (6.1): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.04%), GDP 10.1 E+12 (0.60%)
  35. Iram (6.4): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.01%), GDP 12.7 E+12 (0.75%)
  36. Ultima Thule (6.3): pop. 2.0 E+9 (1.01%), GDP 11.3 E+12 (0.66%)
  37. Bhima (4.3): pop. 1.9 E+9 (1.00%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  38. Todos Santos (7.5): pop. 1.9 E+9 (1.00%), GDP 38.3 E+12 (2.25%)
  39. Khemet (4.3): pop. 1.7 E+9 (0.85%), GDP 1.3 E+12 (0.08%)
  40. Austral Eden (6.3): pop. 1.6 E+9 (0.80%), GDP 9.3 E+12 (0.55%)
  41. Vasileo & Orinoco (5.9): pop. 1.4 E+9 (0.71%), GDP 5.4 E+12 (0.32%)
  42. Broadmeadow (4.6): pop. 1.4 E+9 (0.69%), GDP 1.4 E+12 (0.08%)
  43. Simanta (7): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.64%), GDP 15.0 E+12 (0.88%)
  44. Argolid (2.4): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.61%), GDP 127.7 E+9 (0.01%)
  45. New Earth (7.5): pop. 1.2 E+9 (0.60%), GDP 24.2 E+12 (1.42%)
  46. Persatuan (4.9): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.58%), GDP 1.5 E+12 (0.09%)
  47. Pentecost (3.6): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.57%), GDP 390.0 E+9 (0.02%)
  48. Aeneas (6.8): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.57%), GDP 10.8 E+12 (0.64%)
  49. New Huntington (3.4): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.56%), GDP 311.7 E+9 (0.02%)
  50. Ladon (7): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.56%), GDP 13.5 E+12 (0.79%)
  51. Bakunin (6.2): pop. 1.1 E+9 (0.55%), GDP 5.6 E+12 (0.33%)
  52. New Rome (7.1): pop. 998.1 E+6 (0.51%), GDP 13.5 E+12 (0.79%)
  53. Xanadu (3.2): pop. 981.7 E+6 (0.50%), GDP 237.2 E+9 (0.01%)
  54. Hijra (3.9): pop. 864.2 E+6 (0.44%), GDP 412.5 E+9 (0.02%)
  55. Ashok (4.5): pop. 719.3 E+6 (0.37%), GDP 667.3 E+9 (0.04%)
  56. Liberty (3.8): pop. 676.0 E+6 (0.35%), GDP 280.9 E+9 (0.02%)
  57. Cockaigne (2.8): pop. 531.8 E+6 (0.27%), GDP 83.4 E+9 (0.00%)
  58. Emmaus (2.1): pop. 521.1 E+6 (0.27%), GDP 37.6 E+9 (0.00%)
  59. Fureidis (5.9): pop. 454.7 E+6 (0.23%), GDP 1.8 E+12 (0.10%)
  60. Rungsutu (6.2): pop. 364.3 E+6 (0.19%), GDP 1.8 E+12 (0.11%)
  61. Terranova (5.7): pop. 346.2 E+6 (0.18%), GDP 1.1 E+12 (0.06%)
  62. Xindalu (2.8): pop. 303.1 E+6 (0.16%), GDP 48.9 E+9 (0.00%)
  63. Neuheim (3.2): pop. 246.6 E+6 (0.13%), GDP 58.1 E+9 (0.00%)
  64. Durack (2.5): pop. 152.6 E+6 (0.08%), GDP 17.5 E+9 (0.00%)
  65. New Polynesia (5.5): pop. 130.4 E+6 (0.07%), GDP 327.4 E+9 (0.02%)
  66. New Lombok (2.7): pop. 109.2 E+6 (0.06%), GDP 15.5 E+9 (0.00%)
  67. Borlung (4): pop. 106.9 E+6 (0.05%), GDP 57.9 E+9 (0.00%)
  68. Lahar (3): pop. 57.0 E+6 (0.03%), GDP 11.2 E+9 (0.00%)
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:01 PM   #144
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It turns out that Seeonee's preponderance over the other economies at the highest development level is a result of being a good-sized planet with a low hydrographic percentage, giving it a lot of land surface. Most of the thick flows or sophisticated colonists in the Migration Period were attracted to places that had more-attractive average conditions, but less sheer room for descendants and their agriculture. Seeonee must have enormous irrigation works. It's a planetary-scale Australia, with a thickly-settled littoral and vast semi-arid expanses. I'll have to think about whether low hydrographics has enough effect on salubity, but Seeonee's salubity is only 23%, and that's probably okay.

I can cut it down a little without affecting anything else by supposing that it was slightly less lucky in its migrants or its response to the loss of Earth, but it might not be very sensitive to initial population, and compromising its tech will pull it out of the Suite.

Gliese 853 A is too far from Sol to be the site of Mayflower, and I think it is way too late to revise the history so that Eichberger came from Seeonee. I could give this planet a very isolationist utopian culture like the old Esbouvier and swap the Seeonese to somewhere else. Or I could adjust to the Seeonese really being that overwhelming.

I think I'll swap names with Iter or Simanta and put the Huxleyesque parahumans to these figures.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:05 PM   #145
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So, what about Bakunin? With that name, I'd expect some pretty radical politics...
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:40 PM   #146
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So, what about Bakunin? With that name, I'd expect some pretty radical politics...
It was certainly founded by left-wing anarchists. But I doubt that much of that doctrine has survived the centuries. Liberty and Egalité were also doubtless secular utopist ventures with radical politics.

I'm sorry, but it's going to be Monday before I can give this more significant attention.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #147
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So Seeonee's economic output is a few thousand crowns per annum per capita? About how much is a crown in purchasing power? I realize that the market baskets are radically different at different TLs, but can you give an estimate for something basic like kcal of a balanced diet, or MJ of technologically available energy?

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Old 09-19-2013, 07:59 PM   #148
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So Seeonee's economic output is a few thousand crowns per annum per capita? About how much is a crown in purchasing power? I realize that the market baskets are radically different at different TLs, but can you give an estimate for something basic like kcal of a balanced diet, or MJ of technologically available energy?
An SVU (¤1) is the price of a meal at a cheap restaurant, including a place to sit while you eat it, but minimal service. My benchmark is a Big Mac, regular fries, regular orange juice, and one of those fake-icecream sundaes, or G$4. A crown (₢1) is worth an SVU at DL 8.5, and approximately doubles in purchasing power for non-tradeables for each decrease of -2 DL.

When "Seeonee" (which is virtually certain to get re-named before Monday) is DL 8.5 (i.e. in 606 PDT) its GDP is ₢ 894.1 E+12 and its population 1.54E+10, which is an output of ¤58,058 SVU per head at DL8.5, and I reckon that that is approximately G$232,000 at TL10 (advanced). But buying goods in a TL8 economy it would be worth G$655,000 or so.

Back in 532 PDT "Seeonee" was DL 7.8 and its GDP/person was ¤27,400, which is about G$110k. I won't go into what the crown was worth at the time because that is rather complicated, but ¤27,400 (DL7.8) would have exchanged for ¤60,800 (DL5.5), which is about G$242,000.

Do you think that's off?
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #149
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Do you think that's off?
I had to check the math; my ability to keep track of orders of magnitude in scientific notation seems to be less reliable than I think it used to be. But the arithmetic seems right and not implausible, now that I've checked it.

Your figure seems to say that a person can afford 232,000 fast food meals a year, at TL8 quality, or somewhat over 600 a day; that says that bare food subsistence is around 0.5% of economic output. Of course they probably eat much superior food!

A quick online search indicates that the US spends about 6% of average household income on food. Presumably households in your future societies spend rather less.

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:23 PM   #150
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I had to check the math; my ability to keep track of orders of magnitude in scientific notation seems to be less reliable than I think it used to be.
That's probably my fault; I was using engineering notation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
Of course they probably eat much superior food!
I eat much superior food!

Quote:
A quick online search indicates that the US spends about 6% of average household income on food. Presumably households in your future societies spend rather less.
That's right. Food overall will not be an inferior good, but I expect that expenditure on food will rise slower than income. I expect that health care will continue to be an ultra-superior good, resulting in a standard retirement age of 110 annums. There will be others, too, but health care is probably the most significant.

The people who played 9,401 will recall that the mad scientist whose nefarious scheme the whole thing was about was 229 and had been living in conditions of extreme dependency — well beyond TL8 intensive care — for at least ten years. That sort of thing isn't cheap, and although some people will (wisely, I think) prefer a cheap overdose of soma, most won't.

Speaking of medical expenses, the people of the Huxleyesque utopia that used to be Esbouvier and will probably take the place of Seeonee in the tables above take a significant sum of their income in the form of exowomb services — offset by maternity costs avoided, but probably still a net cost.
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Last edited by Agemegos; 09-19-2013 at 09:57 PM.
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