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Old 05-01-2021, 12:39 AM   #1
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

Hi, friends!

(Adventurers p.108 says "Hands: Fingered gloves or gauntlets for both hands. Give ‑3 to DX-based fine work (Knot-Tying, Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sleight of Hand, Traps, etc.), cumulative with Ham-Fisted (p. 61).
I can assume that, as it does not give ham-fisted, as in gurps rules, it not penalizes fast draw skill or the "ect." includes this skill, classifying Fast-Draw as a DX-base fine work?

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Old 05-01-2021, 02:37 AM   #2
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

I don't think Fast-Draw should be penalized. 1) you don't need fine motoric to grab a sword handle; 2) it would be less fun if armor penalized that kind of thing.
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Old 05-02-2021, 02:02 AM   #3
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

I aggree. Thanks!
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Old 05-02-2021, 07:19 AM   #4
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

I agree, because I think that Fast-Draw is definitely not "fine work." Here's the detailed reasoning, based upon the wording of the description of armor for the Hands (DFA 108).

High Manual Dexterity is mutually incompatible with Ham-Fisted. I think it is helpful to take a look at those skills set forth in Adventurers that have bonuses or penalties for either one: Forgery (DFA 77); Knot-Tying (DFA79-80); Lockpicking (DFA80); Pickpocket (DFA85); Sleight of Hand (DFA89); DX-based Traps (DFA92). Notably, Fast-Draw does not get a bonus for High Manual Dexterity, but does get a penalty for Ham-Fisted. That leads to the conclusion that unlike all the other skills that would are considered "fine work," Fast-Draw does not get the bonus for High Manual Dexterity.

The description for Ham-Fisted in DFRPG (DFA 61) indicates that each level "gives -3 to the Fast-Draw, Knot- Tying, Lockpicking, Pickpocket, and Sleight of Hand skills, and to DX-based Traps rolls. This doesn’t affect IQ-based tasks, large-scale DX-based ones, or any combat-related rolls other than Fast-Draw." Interestingly, that's different from the description in GURPS Basic Set: Characters, but looking at that is actually helpful in determining intent here, because that book says: "You suffer a penalty to any DX-based roll to do fine work using the skills listed under High Manual Dexterity (p. 59), and to Fast-Draw skill." (B138).

The key here is that it describes "fine work" and Fast-Draw. If Fast-Draw were considered "fine work," that would be redundant. Ergo, we can conclude that since the authors felt the need to call out Fast-Draw specifically in addition to "fine work," it is not "fine work."

Oddly, in GURPS Basic Set; Characters, there is no penalty for fine work for wearing gauntlets, presumably under the scenario of "that's obvious, why would we need to spell that out." I chalk that up to an interesting oversight.

FYI, Ham-Fisted and Manual Dexterity also apply to GURPS Basic Set Skills like DX-based Artist, Leatherworking and Sewing. I'd consider someone trying to do any kind of work like that in DFRPG to be "fine work" and give the bouns or penalize those accordingly for High Manual Dexterity, Ham-Fisted, or those wearing gauntlets (e.g., repairing leather armor, trying to draw something on a wall, trying to copy down on paper an exact duplicate of a symbol on a wall).

I will say that for a some time I operated under the assumption that gauntlets gave the Ham-Fisted disadvantage. I think the issue probably stems from a sentence from GURPS Low-Tech, which says, under the description for "Mittens" (LT 98), that "(Armor designed for the hands – gauntlets – gives Ham-Fisted but not Bad Grip.)" But it appears that the DFRPG designers didn't want that to be the case, and instead wrote that hand armor just gives an equivalent penalty to fine work only.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:21 AM   #5
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

fast draw don't usually need "finger work".

Most weapons are made to be grabbed by the hand completely.

Maybe fast draw (arrow) will get a penalty but for melee weapons I don't think it sound right.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:03 PM   #6
Black Leviathan
Join Date: Sep 2018
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

I'm going to say normally no, but if the item you're fastdrawing normally benefits from High Manual Dexterity Advantage then it's small enough or particular enough that you'd face a fine-motor-skills penalty on your fast draw so.. If you had a magical lockpick you wanted to pop into your hand in a snap, you'd have a fast-draw penalty for doing it with gauntlets on. But that seems like a super rare case.
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Old 05-09-2021, 04:55 PM   #7
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default Re: Fast-Draw penalty for hands armor question

Thanks, friends!
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