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Old 03-10-2021, 07:39 AM   #1
Tinman
 
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Default Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

I need help finding rule about concentrate when grappled.
I'm GMing a Phoenix Project campaign and I think this is going to be relevant often enough to look into.

By the basic book, one absolutely can not concentrate while grappled. However, I remember reading somewhere rules about rolling against a penalty to to concentrate while grappled. (I think it may have been a DF book. It also, might have been an advantage.)

Any help would be appreciated very much.
Thanks.
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Old 03-10-2021, 09:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

GURPS: Technical Grappling, the book for people who think GURPS is a great system but the grappling rules need to be more complicated, allows (on p.23) a concentrate maneuver after a successful Will roll at a penalty equal to the strength of the character you are grappling with, adjusted by a scaling factor if your character is very high strength (if your strength is at least twenty, halve the penalty, divide it by three instead if your strength is at least thirty, and so on- so that creatures of very high strength hinder each other roughly as much as humans with the same relative proportions) and further modified by various rules specific to that book.
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Old 03-10-2021, 12:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

Ravenfish: Thanks. That helps a lot.

I don't want to introduce the TG rules but getting the cp to offset the enemy's ST seems important. Does anyone have a suggestions?

Also, is there another set of rules that would cover concentrate while grappled?
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Old 03-10-2021, 12:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I don't want to introduce the TG rules but getting the cp to offset the enemy's ST seems important. Does anyone have a suggestions?
IIRC, there's an option in TG that for you to get CP equal to ST when establishing a grapple, which is roughly comparable in effect to how grapples work in the default system (with ST 10 characters, 10 CP imposes a -5 to most DX-based actions, as opposed to the -4 of the default rules). So, you can just base the penalty off that, without actually using CP and the rest of TG.
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Old 03-10-2021, 12:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I don't want to introduce the TG rules but getting the cp to offset the enemy's ST seems important. Does anyone have a suggestions?
As a simple approximation: take the full penalty to the required Will roll if your opponent has grappled you and you haven't yet established a grapple on him; halve the penalty once you successfully grapple your opponent back. (Pinning him, as usual, allows you to act freely.)

EDIT: For those who like the idea of technical grappling but aren't quite up to actually dealing with it, the author has also published Fantastic Dungeon Grappling (designed for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG but usable with mainline GURPS) that retains the core principle while making significant simplifications of game play (for example, control points no longer directly penalize strength, so you don't need to look up your new grappling damage every time your opponent's grip on you changes, and the way grapples on multiple body parts add up is much more straightforward) and having a presentation that is far, far better organized and more straightforward. Obviously, many of the detailed options and specific techniques and maneuvers are missing from it, but some of them at least can be ported over from Technical Grappling directly and others with only minimal adjustment.

EDITEDIT: It is 12 pages (counting the cover and advertisements) to Technical Grappling's 51 and, unlike Technical Grappling, actually fits in those twelve pages rather than seeming to have been squeezed down from a book thirty percent longer without regard to comprehensibility.

EDITEDITEDIT: It also doesn't have any rules about concentrating while grappled (see what I mean about leaving things out?), but CP are gained in exactly the same way, so the rules from Technical Grappling could be adapted without any problem.
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Old 03-10-2021, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
EDIT: For those who like the idea of technical grappling but aren't quite up to actually dealing with it, the author has also published Fantastic Dungeon Grappling (designed for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG but usable with mainline GURPS) that retains the core principle while making significant simplifications of game play (for example, control points no longer directly penalize strength, so you don't need to look up your new grappling damage every time your opponent's grip on you changes, and the way grapples on multiple body parts add up is much more straightforward) and having a presentation that is far, far better organized and more straightforward.
It's amazing what five or six years of play experience and practice writing will do.


Quote:
Obviously, many of the detailed options and specific techniques and maneuvers are missing from it, but some of them at least can be ported over from Technical Grappling directly and others with only minimal adjustment.
and The Chaotic GM has done a lot of the lifting for you here.

Quote:
EDITEDITEDIT: It also doesn't have any rules about concentrating while grappled (see what I mean about leaving things out?), but CP are gained in exactly the same way, so the rules from Technical Grappling could be adapted without any problem.
The rule from the Dungeon Fantasy RPG is "you can't cast while grappled." Nothing needed to be said more than that.
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The rule from the Dungeon Fantasy RPG is "you can't cast while grappled." Nothing needed to be said more than that.
Such an absolute rule is simple, but does create some strangeness if you get silly enough cases. Skin parasites (with their biting grapples) will shut down a mage, for example. That's an obvious case where it shouldn't apply, but it demonstrates that there are cases where it shouldn't apply. Which implies the existence of cases where it maybe shouldn't apply (mother chimp grappled by her baby?).

There really should be some scaling possibility of ignoring or overcoming the distraction of a grapple.
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The rule from the Dungeon Fantasy RPG is "you can't cast while grappled." Nothing needed to be said more than that.
While we have your attention, are there any other subtle differences between GURPS grappling and DFRPG grappling that one should be aware of before using the rules in a GURPS context?
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

Vayron & Ravenfish, thank you both.
So if I understand correctly, if a Psi is grappled by a ST12 opponent & he wants to use his power (a concentrate):
It's will-6 to just 'cast' or if he grapples back it's will-3 to cast.
Right?

PS: While I already had TG & now picked up the other book.
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help finding rule: concentrate when grappled

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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
Vayron & Ravenfish, thank you both.
So if I understand correctly, if a Psi is grappled by a ST12 opponent & he wants to use his power (a concentrate):
It's will-6 to just 'cast' or if he grapples back it's will-3 to cast.
Right?

PS: While I already had TG & now picked up the other book.
-12 to cast (or -6 under my house-rules if he grapples back), assuming I'm reading the rules right (and assuming the Psi's strength is 19 or less). [Note- this is a will roll at -12 or -6, followed by normal use of the ability if successful, not a -12 or -6 to any roll to use the ability.] Harsh, but potentially achievable for a strong-willed Psi, and, given that the default is "can't even try", possibly fair. As a GM, I would be willing to consider allowing the bonus from All-Out Concentrate or even Extra Effort, but, unless the Psi is vastly stronger of mind than he is of body, he might well be better off trying to break free or pin his opponent instead.
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Last edited by ravenfish; 03-10-2021 at 05:03 PM.
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