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Old 11-29-2020, 04:42 PM   #1
VariousRen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

I'm looking to build an advantage for a half-orc, half-troll, half-other, bad-at-fractions character and I've run into a grey area concerning Unkillable and Limited Use.

The character already has regeneration (Regular) and is looking to purchase Unkillable as part of their troll heritage, representing the ability of most trolls to resist and regenerate injuries that would incapacitate or kill most creatures (missing lungs, giant holes through them). The plan was take Unkillable 1 (Limited Uses, 2) to let them fight through normally-fatal injuries a couple of times a day. Limited Use gives non-attack advantages a duration of 1 minute, during which they get to auto-pass HT checks to not die and, importantly, not die automatically at -5xHP and beyond.

The thing I'm not sure of is what is suppose to happen at the end of that one minute when Unkillable 1 ends. Do I:
A) Make HT checks for each death threshold I would have passed, and auto die if I'm at -5xHP or beyond. Effectively I re-take all of the damage and suffer the normal effects.
B) Continue living as normal, making death checks at the normal thresholds if I'm damaged further. If at -5xHP any further injury would automatically kill me. Effectively Unkillable allowed me to dodge the critical effects of the injury when I suffered it.

This same question would also come up if Unkillable was negated temporarily or was switchable, which others may find useful in the future. My searches didn't turn up any official or generally accepted answers yet, so I thought it would be worth asking.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:21 PM   #2
DangerousThing
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

If you're thinking about the DnD troll, then I'd like to suggest that you read Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson. Somewhere in the middle the characters fight a single troll and have problems.

This troll was, I think, used as the prototype for the rpg troll. The only way to kill it was to cut pieces off and burn them immediately. If you left the pieces alone, they crawled back to the troll and reattached.

I would use Injury Tolerance and fast regeneration w/regrowth to model the troll, with some limitation for the pieces.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:23 PM   #3
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
If you're thinking about the DnD troll, then I'd like to suggest that you read Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson. Somewhere in the middle the characters fight a single troll and have problems.
Our game is using the DF Monsters 1 Troll, which has (among other things) Regeneration (Very Fast), Injury Tolerance (No brain, vitals), and Unkillable 3 (Not vs. Burn, Cor) as standard. A full blooded troll can be reduced to red mush and regenerate over a few minutes.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

I think I'd go with if your UK1 turns off and you still have more than -5xHP then you just continue as normal. If you're under -5xHP, well you die.

My reasoning is that it's like having a force field giving you DR and being on fire. If the field dies after the fire is out, you don't retroactively get burned. If it turns off and you're still on fire, you get burned.

That said, Berserk works they other way - when it wears off you have to redo all the death checks, so there's a case for that to be the case here, too.
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Old 11-29-2020, 11:52 PM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Berserk works they other way - when it wears off you have to redo all the death checks
B124 doesn't mention multiple HT checks and there's some Kromm posts saying it's just one per each (death/conscious) not redoing all the ones you passed at +4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
You definitely do make all of those survival rolls, one for each increment of -HP, at HT+4 when Berserk.

When you snap out, you don't make them all again. You make just one roll at HT.
Then there's the Angie example
Quote:
The fourth and final blow deals another 15 HP. That's 56 HP total injury, putting Angie at -42 HP. She hit thresholds at -28 HP (-2×HP) and -42 HP (-3×HP), and rolls twice more at 16 not to die. She doesn't.

Then Angie snaps out of berserk. Being at -HP or worse, she must immediately roll once vs. her unmodified HT of 12 to be alive. She does, luckily for her.

Being below 0 HP and not dead, she must also roll once vs. HT to stay conscious – but at -3 for being so far in the hole. That's 9 or less, and she rolls a 10 and fails, passing out immediately.
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:09 AM   #6
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B124 doesn't mention multiple HT checks and there's some Kromm posts saying it's just one per each (death/conscious) not redoing all the ones you passed at +4.

Then there's the Angie example
This makes sense to me.

Effectively, having Unkillable 1 means you do not suffer the death effects of having -HP, except the auto-death at -10xHP. You didn't auto-succeed at those death checks, because they don't actually exist.

However, once unkillable wears off, and you are still at -HP, then you start doing death checks.

But you don't need to retro-actively roll the death checks that never existed. ;)

(hopefully that's clear)
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:04 AM   #7
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

If you are at -5×HP or worse, you would automatically die when Unkillable wore off, which is why Limited Use is not the best option for a character. Unkillable with Achilles Heel is probably a better option that Unkillable with Limited Use, especially since the damage source for Achilles Heel should only show up as often as indicated by the rarity.

For example, if I have a character with Achilles Heel (Cheese, Rare), it is rare because cheese-based damage should be quite rare in the vast majority of campaigns. Of course, the GM can have the occasional meeting occurring in a fondue restaurant, just to remind the player that they remember to Achilles Heel, but there should not be enemies regularly running around with cheese-based weaponry.

In the case of Unkillable (Limited Use) though, the character will always die one minute after taking -5×HP damage unless they have Regeneration (Very Fast), so it just ends up being a very expensive death delaying move. Unkillable 2 (Limited Use, 2 uses/day, -30%; Super, -10%) [60] is the same cost as Unkillable 2 (Achilles Heel, Impaling Wood, -30%; Super, -10%) [60], but a character with the latter build is going to get a lot more utility than a character with the former build. Even if you also toss in Regeneration (Very Fast; Bane, Impaling Wood, -30%; Super, -10%) [60] to both designs, the latter character is still better off, they are just nervous around wooden stakes.
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:59 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
If you are at -5×HP or worse, you would automatically die when Unkillable wore off, which is why Limited Use is not the best option for a character. Unkillable with Achilles Heel is probably a better option that Unkillable with Limited Use, especially since the damage source for Achilles Heel should only show up as often as indicated by the rarity.
It is, however, not what the OP was after.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:38 AM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

The proposed troll character would be better off with the latter build than the former build. With Regeneration (Regular), a character cannot recover quickly enough from a fatal attack to reach viability in one minute. Anyway, you would need to turn on the advantage (Limited Use makes it switchable) for Unkillable to apply.

For example, let us say that the proposed troll character takes an attack to their heart that reduces them to -7×HT. Unless the player announced that they had activated the power before they suffered the attack, the troll character drops dead because Unkillable with Limited Use will not reflexively activate. Even if they do activate it though, the troll character will only live an extra minute before dropping dead.

A better option for a troll character may be Unkillable 1 (Achilles Heel, Fire, -50%; Magical, -10%; Takes Recharge, 5 minutes, -20%) [10], as it would avoid the previously mentioned issues with activation, but there would still be issues of duration. The troll character would need to upgrade their Regeneration to Very Fast to really gain any repeated utility from the Unkillable 1, so Regeneration (Very Fast; Bane, Fire, -50%; Magical, -10%) [40] may be appropriate. In addition, Regrowth (Bane, Fire, -50%; Magical, -10%) [16] might also be a good idea.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:51 AM   #10
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Unkillable and Limited Uses - What happens when Unkillable expires

It feels like the most appropriate way to handle such a situation would be, as others have noted, to treat it similarly to the way Berserk works. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to having each use serve as a 1-minute, unlimited use "get out of jail free" card. That is, once it's active, it doesn't matter how much injury you suffer, so long as you stay above -10xHP, when the duration expires, you're still kicking (although any further injury will auto-kill you if you're at or below -5xHP).

As for the build itself, a potential alternative to Limited Use would be Maximum Duration. In that form, once it's active it lasts for some set amount of time (as set by the Disadvantage value), then you have a "cooldown" period during which it cannot be used. One issue you'll run into with just about any similar build is that such abilities need to be activated on your turn, while Unkillable seems like something you'd want to be reflexive - yet Reflexive is often worth more than the discount you're getting. I'm not certain what the best way to address this would be.
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