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Old 11-19-2019, 01:42 PM   #1
Raekai
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Default Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

Hey, all! Just a quick question.

I'm working on some After the End stuff right now, and the Remington Double-Derringer seemed like a good choice for a decent gun. In Basic, it's treated as TL5, which may just be for simplicity, but I noticed that High-Tech lists it as TL6. I thought that was strange because it also lists that it became available in 1866, which would still put it at TL5. This is even more obvious in Adventure Guns where—well, I'll make it a list so it's easy to see:
  • Remington Double-Derringer; 1866; TL6
  • Frank Wesson Dagger-Pistol; 1869; TL6
  • Remington M1871; 1872; TL5
  • Colt-Thuer Derringer No. 3; 1872; TL6
  • Turbiaux Le Protector; 1882; TL6
My general understanding is that TL6 starts about 1880+, which would make the Turbiaux Le Protector the first actual TL6 gun in the list, but I know that's an about. Maybe these guns are listed for the TL of their popularity, but I don't know what influenced these decisions. It seems especially weird that it jumps to TL6 early but pops back to TL5 for the Remington M1871.

It's not a big deal, of course. I can easily wave my hands and treat guns before 1880 as TL5 guns, but I'm definitely curious about how these things were decided or how others might handle this.

Thanks!
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Old 11-21-2019, 03:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

About two days later, I'm gonna bump this (once) just in case some different people see it and have some thoughts.

Thanks!
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

Personally, I consider 1860-1890 to be its own little mini-Tech-Level. The guns become much more sophisticated, you travel from city to city in trains rather than coaches, messages are sent via the telegraph, and people wear machine-made clothing. The era has steamships, ironclad vessels, and is much more mechanical than 1800.

In terms of guns, the weapons from the mini-TL are quite distinctive, lacking the clean mechanical precision of the 20th century but still attaining repeating fire, and using cartridges, a far cry from the breach-loaders that had been so common only a few decades earlier.

So you are justified making all of them TL6 or all of them TL5 or even applying a custom cost multiplier of x3 for being on the edge like that.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

TL boundaries are slippery things, because ideas and manufacturing processes don't spread instantly. The signature technology for TL6 in firearms is smokeless powder, although good steel at reasonable prices due to the invention of the Bessemer Converter also made a big difference.

It's definitely possible for TL6 devices to have been built before 1880 in the USA, although I don't know how these guns were assigned to TL5 or TL6.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

I tend to start TL6 at 1870 or even 1865 when it comes to weaponry myself.

That said, calling the era between the American Civil War and the Spanish-American War its own TL (for argument's sake, let's call it TL5.5) isn't a bad idea, per se. It has its own aesthetic distinct from the Colonial period of TL5 and the WWI-Roaring Twenties period of TL6. Quite a bit was in flux in that time period, as the internal combustion engine was not yet replacing the steam engine, and was actually competing with the electric engine for dominance in the horseless carriage market (which were primarily the rich folks).
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:18 PM   #6
Raekai
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Default Re: Should the Remington Double-Derringer be TL5 or TL6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Personally, I consider 1860-1890 to be its own little mini-Tech-Level. The guns become much more sophisticated, you travel from city to city in trains rather than coaches, messages are sent via the telegraph, and people wear machine-made clothing. The era has steamships, ironclad vessels, and is much more mechanical than 1800.

In terms of guns, the weapons from the mini-TL are quite distinctive, lacking the clean mechanical precision of the 20th century but still attaining repeating fire, and using cartridges, a far cry from the breach-loaders that had been so common only a few decades earlier.

So you are justified making all of them TL6 or all of them TL5 or even applying a custom cost multiplier of x3 for being on the edge like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
TL boundaries are slippery things, because ideas and manufacturing processes don't spread instantly. The signature technology for TL6 in firearms is smokeless powder, although good steel at reasonable prices due to the invention of the Bessemer Converter also made a big difference.

It's definitely possible for TL6 devices to have been built before 1880 in the USA, although I don't know how these guns were assigned to TL5 or TL6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
I tend to start TL6 at 1870 or even 1865 when it comes to weaponry myself.

That said, calling the era between the American Civil War and the Spanish-American War its own TL (for argument's sake, let's call it TL5.5) isn't a bad idea, per se. It has its own aesthetic distinct from the Colonial period of TL5 and the WWI-Roaring Twenties period of TL6. Quite a bit was in flux in that time period, as the internal combustion engine was not yet replacing the steam engine, and was actually competing with the electric engine for dominance in the horseless carriage market (which were primarily the rich folks).
Emphasis mine.

Awesome! It seemed simple enough, but, now, with the GURPS forums at my back, I'll feel better about it. I'm going to go with TL5.5 and make it ×3. I figured it had to do something with the technologies going into the weapon, and having these be edge cases is kinda neat. I like the feel of that for an After the End game too.

I appreciate the replies!
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