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Old 01-22-2014, 09:35 AM   #91
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So by extension no reason why he should require CPs to pay for an advantage gained through play.

(Like "wealth" through a large in session haul)
A big pile of Cash is not the same as the Advantage Wealth.
The benefits of Wealth require point expenditure (or the advantage could be gifted by the GM like any other Advantage - Rank granted by a Patron, Unaging granted by a God, etc.

Having a big pile of cash does not 'require' you to spend points on the Wealth Advantage - with 2 possible exceptions: Dead Broke, and where you have a Job of a higher Wealth Level.
If you don't spend points to increase your relative Wealth level, then those characters who are Dead Broke will 'lose' their money (the cost of a -25 points Disadvantage is being hosed by fate/GM); and those with a Job from a higher Wealth level risk losing their Job (the rules don't actually say that, but its a logical resolution to the situation).
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:02 AM   #92
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
A big pile of Cash is not the same as the Advantage Wealth.
The benefits of Wealth require point expenditure (or the advantage could be gifted by the GM like any other Advantage - Rank granted by a Patron, Unaging granted by a God, etc.

Having a big pile of cash does not 'require' you to spend points on the Wealth Advantage -
I agree, but it's been argued so by others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
with 2 possible exceptions: Dead Broke, and where you have a Job of a higher Wealth Level.
If you don't spend points to increase your relative Wealth level, then those characters who are Dead Broke will 'lose' their money (the cost of a -25 points Disadvantage is being hosed by fate/GM); and those with a Job from a higher Wealth level risk losing their Job (the rules don't actually say that, but its a logical resolution to the situation).
I think that's an overly harsh logical resolution (more on the dead broke thing than the job one though).

Wealth's only game effect is in Char gen in how much money you start with (plus a fee bonus possibly to status), which is why applying its effect further directly into the game is IMO not appropriate

No where in the description does it say in dead broke that you are incapable of retaining money.

Basically:

You start with nothing but here's 25cp ≠ you will never have anything but here's 25cp

or

You start with $200 but here's 15cp) ≠ you will never be able to have more than $200 worth of anything but here's 15cp.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:17 AM   #93
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I agree, but it's been argued so by others.
That seems to be contrary to the rules as written, even if some people argue for it.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:22 AM   #94
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That seems to be contrary to the rules as written, even if some people argue for it.
Actually, the rules as written are inconsistent, and in fact inconsistent on the very same page.

In practice, I solve the problem by just forbidding wealth advantages/disadvantages in any game that's likely to have large changes in personal net worth due to adventuring, and in games that aren't like that you either pay points or you lose the money.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:30 AM   #95
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Actually, the rules as written are inconsistent, and in fact inconsistent on the very same page.
Which page are we talking about, and what are the two inconsistent statements? I've lost track.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:41 AM   #96
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Which page are we talking about, and what are the two inconsistent statements? I've lost track.
B291. Wealth is ordinarily a trait gained during play (whether or not cash by itself == wealth, it's certainly possible to turn a pile of cash into wealth with all the trappings), and thus shouldn't cost points, but is given as a specific example of something to spend points on. I'm guessing that page is a collision of two distinctly different gaming philosophies.
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Last edited by Anthony; 01-22-2014 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:04 AM   #97
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

I did a quick sweep through Characters for instances of the term 'buy off'. It netted me several apparently relevant cases of a buy off being triggered and compulsory. I did not do a search for something like 'buying up' so this is possibly only partial data.

There are 8 cases where the requirement is stated, but no mechanism provided for carrying it out. There are 5 cases where the procedure to follow is specified.

These are the ones in which specific procedures are specified. Of possible note, none of these cases include the idea of running a point deficit. I am only guessing to hope sir_pudding might find the emphasized portions shed some light on an analysis of his.

"If you acquire a “miracle cure,”
upload yourself into a new body, or
otherwise extend your life past your
termination date during the course of
the campaign, you must buy off this
disadvantage. If you cannot afford to
do so, the GM is free to make up the
difference with new disadvantages
related to your illness or its cure
(e.g.,
Chronic Pain, ..."
b158



"If your Dependent is killed, or so
seriously injured that the GM decides
he is effectively out of the campaign,
you must make up the bonus points
you got for him. You have three
options: buy off the amount by spending
earned character points, take a
new disadvantage
(e.g., Chronic
Depression, p. 126), or get a new
Dependent."
b131



"You must buy off a disadvantageous
Destiny as soon as it is fulfilled.
This is automatic if the outcome strips
you of Allies, Status, Wealth, etc.
worth the same number of points. If
you lack the points to buy off your
Destiny, you gain Unluckiness
(p. 160), regardless of the point value
of the Destiny. It is up to the GM
whether you can buy off the
Unluckiness! Alternatively, the GM
might assign you a new bad Destiny,
Divine Curse (below), or other supernatural
disadvantage.
B132


"If you start with a weak Enemy, or
play cleverly, you might manage to
eliminate your foe or permanently
change his attitude toward you. But as
the saying goes, “There ain’t no such
thing as a free lunch.” If you get rid of
an Enemy, you have three choices:
1. Pay enough character points to
buy off the original bonus you got for
that Enemy.
2. Take a disadvantage to make up
for the point bonus.
For instance, you
might have been kicked in the head
during the final battle, leaving you
partially deaf. Or a giant spider might
have attacked you, leaving you with
arachnophobia. The new disadvantage
should have the same point cost
as your former Enemy (or less, if you
want to buy off part of the disadvantage).

If you cannot think of a good
substitute disadvantage, the GM will
be more than happy to supply one!
3. Take a new Enemy of equal
value. You might have destroyed the
fiendish Dr. Scorpion – but his
brother is continuing his evil work."
b135

"Should you ever reach your goal,
you must either substitute a new goal
or buy off your Obsession."
b146




These are the cases where no procedure is supplied {my remarks are italicized}:


You must buy off this trait when you reach
“legal age” (usually 18) for your time
and place.
B155

{The birthday happens during an off-stage/down-time period in the campaign. When play begins, the character has no unspent CP. What happens?}




"Of course, your reputation extends
only within a certain area. If you travel
far enough away, the GM may
require you to “buy off” the disadvantage
points you received for a bad reputation."
B28

Social Stigma: You cannot get rid of
this with points alone. You must either
change your position in society or
change your society. The GM will tell
you when you have succeeded – at that
time, you must pay enough points to
buy off the original disadvantage.
B292

{I put these two together because they have practical similarities and could somehow make an enlightening comparison.}




If you manage to
exorcise the evil spirits, you are cured
and must buy off this disadvantage.
B148 (Phantom Voices)

{Scenario: Diagrogos, Priest of Evil is captured by minions of Yenwe, goddess of nice. They decide to exorcise him of his evil spirits.

What happens in:

Case 1: They succeed, but he has no CP available to spend, but would indeed love to be free of the voices.
Case 1B: They succeed, but he has no available CP to spend, and doesn't want to get rid of it anyway.
Case C: They succeed, he does have sufficient unspent CP, but doesn't want to get rid of it.}





"When your [secret] disadvantage finally becomes obvious in the course of play (GM’s
decision), you must buy off the extra -5 points as soon as possible."
B120

{This is an interesting one because it implies that in the event a character cannot buy off the -5 points immediately, he carries a payment obligation to be realized out of earned character points. In effect, a negative balance of unspent points.}



"For details, see Drug
Withdrawal (p. 440). Should you successfully
withdraw from an Addiction,
you must immediately buy off this disadvantage."
b122

{This contrasts with secret disadvantage, in saying immediately instead of as soon as possible. So what happens if the character goes through the process of withdrawal and doesn't have the points at the time it's complete?}


{Last two:}

"If you can make 14 successful rolls in
succession, you must buy off your
Addiction."
b122


"Many Vows end after a specified
period of time. You must buy off such
a Vow when it ends."
B161

Last edited by Figleaf23; 01-22-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:12 AM   #98
Kromm
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

Optional Purchase of Wealth: When your PC receives a windfall (treasure, lottery winnings, etc.), enough to boost her Wealth, you have the option to declare that she's investing some or all of her money in the social structures necessary to support higher Wealth. That means things like buying club memberships, opening a secured trading account, paying off debts, starting tabs by making large purchases from prestigious merchants, investing most of the money for the long term, and having her now-impressed banker, newly hired attorney, et al. vouch for her. Then you can spend some earned points on Wealth, which will give her the connections for better jobs at a future date, and possibly some free Wealth-derived Status. Such a course is never required, and you always have the alternative of saying that your PC keeps the cash for spending and uses it to buy gear – but that won't help her future jobs, Status, etc.

Compulsory Purchase of Wealth: When your PC earns a lot of money by working at a job, the choice is made for her. She has come into good fortune the slow, sure way that most societies recognize as respectable. She has been making connections and investments for months or years. As the player, you're required to spend earned points on Wealth . . . unless you can successfully petition the GM to agree that your PC is suddenly out of a job and discredited with nothing but a bunch of money to show for it.

Spontaneous Addition of Wealth: When your PC is rewarded – when the GM decrees something like, "And your reward from the Prince is riches. Everybody now has Very Wealthy!" – she get Wealth and her point value goes up. The Wealth takes the form of the contacts for better jobs, free Status, etc. There may be no extra cash . . . what she gains, in effect, is credit rating. Thus, this is not a windfall or earnings, but a hybrid case where the respect and connections of the latter are bestowed in the manner of the former, without liquid assets necessarily changing hands. Refusing the free advantage is an option, but this might mean gaining nothing; the kinds of authorities who can award social privilege pay little or nothing to do so, and often lack the personal fortune to award a cash equivalent.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:17 AM   #99
Figleaf23
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Optional Purchase of Wealth: When your PC receives a windfall (treasure, lottery winnings, etc.), enough to boost her Wealth, you have the option to declare that she's investing some or all of her money in the social structures necessary to support higher Wealth. That means things like buying club memberships, opening a secured trading account, paying off debts, starting tabs by making large purchases from prestigious merchants, investing most of the money for the long term, and having her now-impressed banker, newly hired attorney, et al. vouch for her. Then you can spend some earned points on Wealth, which will give her the connections for better jobs at a future date, and possibly some free Wealth-derived Status. Such a course is never required, and you always have the alternative of saying that your PC keeps the cash for spending and uses it to buy gear – but that won't help her future jobs, Status, etc.
Is it permissible for the GM to let the character take a disad to pay for the point balance?

Last edited by Figleaf23; 01-22-2014 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:35 AM   #100
whswhs
 
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Default Re: How do you handle compulsory point expenditures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
B291. Wealth is ordinarily a trait gained during play (whether or not cash by itself == wealth, it's certainly possible to turn a pile of cash into wealth with all the trappings), and thus shouldn't cost points, but is given as a specific example of something to spend points on. I'm guessing that page is a collision of two distinctly different gaming philosophies.
It's true that it's possible to gain cash during play. But that page says explicitly that to gain Wealth, you must both pay the point cost of a higher Wealth level and amass cash equal to the starting wealth for that Wealth level. That can only make sense if Wealth does not reduce to simply having cash.

From the other side, you can buy cash equal to 10% of average starting wealth for 1 point, or gain Signature Gear equal to 50% of average starting wealth for 1 point. So both cash and possessions are distinguished in the rules from Wealth, which has a different point cost scheme.

Therefore, what you are spending the points on cannot be the money as such (especially since you could buy Wealth, gain starting wealth, and then spend the whole campaign depleting starting wealth, never make more, and never have that much cash again).

There seem to be at least three things that Wealth gets you. One is, in many societies, a bonus to Status. The other is access to higher-class jobs with a superior pay rate. The third is the ability to earn larger amounts of Independent Income from your investments (but, conversely, the need to pay larger amounts on your debts). None of these follows from simply having more cash, neither in GURPS rules nor in the real world.

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