Berserk while unarmed

[Michael Thayne]

I've been trying to work out what minotaur culture is likely to be like in Dungeon Fantasy, where all minotaurs have both Bad Temper and Berserk. I thought to myself, "If forced to attack friends, they can use their fists, right? Nothing requires them to use weapons or even their horns, is there?" I checked Characters and... the rules don't say anything whatsoever about going Berserk when unarmed. The first bullet in the rules says, "If armed with a hand weapon, you must make an All-Out Attack each turn a foe is in range", and the next bullet discusses ranged weapons, but the entire issue of Berserk and unarmed attacks is never addressed. So, uh, what does it do if you're unarmed? It's unclear.

The sidebar "Berserk and the Martial Arts" (Martial Arts p. 179) says "In game terms, those who suffer the effects of Berserk can only take the All-Out Attack maneuver" but this contradicts Characters, not only allows but requires Move maneuvers if needed to get into melee range with an enemy. Characters also seems to allow some applications of the Ready maneuver: reloading is forbidden if it would take more than one second, but using a single Ready maneuver to reload seems to be allowed. Drawing a new weapon seems to be allowed if you can't reload in one second, and it's not even clear drawing a weapon stored in such a way that doing so requires multiple maneuvers is forbidden.

I really don't know what to do with all this. I am tempted by the idea that Berserk really doesn't do much if you're unarmed and minotaur culture has collectively figured out they can largely neutralize their racial Berserk disadvantage with norms like "never pick up a weapon you don't intend to use"... but that doesn't seem quite right.

I'm sort of flabbergasted by the idea that this has never been addressed in a clearer way than the Martial Arts sidebar, but that's the most substantial statement on the issue I can find. Or am I overlooking something?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm sort of flabbergasted by the idea that this has never been addressed in a clearer way than the Martial Arts sidebar, but that's the most substantial statement on the issue I can find. Or am I overlooking something?

Other than the fundamental thing the disadvantage represents? No.

Keep in mind here traits are supposed to model something from reality, not the other way around. If you are taking a trait and deep reading the rules to work out the implications, you are doing it backward. Berserk is about "too enraged and determined to kill to even defend yourself, let alone think straight", it's NOT about a particular list of allowed maneuvers. That list, and similar lists for other traits like Combat Paralysis or On the Edge or whatever, are examples, not the essence of the trait. For instance there are a few moves that require All Out Attacks because they demand so much focus you can't spare any for defense, those are not valid options for a Berserk character either.

If you are unarmed and go berserk you can attack unarmed, or if you are more deadly with a weapon, you can (and arguably must) attempt to arm yourself if you could without needing to think about it rationally or leaving the fight. So if you are carrying a weapon you've drawn from there lots of times before, you can Ready it. You see one you know how to use well sitting free and could reach it in a moment or two, you can Move to it and Ready it. You've got one in a gun safe you'd need to move to the next room and fiddle with the combination lock to get, nope, not an option. But no, you can't avoid the disadvantage by not having a weapon. It's about passionately wanting to [kill] - you need to do, if not your absolute best to kill everyone, then at least a credible approach to it subject to the limitations you can't think rationally about what the best method is, or exercise patience or guile should it call for them.

And yeah, I think a race with Bad Temper and Berserk probably can't [have] friends, or a racial culture. They're pretty much stuck being solitary monsters. Berserk is a [really] crippling disadvantage on purpose.

[Anthony]

Of course, if this is DF, exploiting rules quirks is kind of in the spirit of the game.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Other than the fundamental thing the disadvantage represents? No.

Keep in mind here traits are supposed to model something from reality, not the other way around. If you are taking a trait and deep reading the rules to work out the implications, you are doing it backward. Berserk is about "too enraged and determined to kill to even defend yourself, let alone think straight", it's NOT about a particular list of allowed maneuvers. That list, and similar lists for other traits like Combat Paralysis or On the Edge or whatever, are examples, not the essence of the trait. For instance there are a few moves that require All Out Attacks because they demand so much focus you can't spare any for defense, those are not valid options for a Berserk character either.

If you are unarmed and go berserk you can attack unarmed, or if you are more deadly with a weapon, you can (and arguably must) attempt to arm yourself if you could without needing to think about it rationally or leaving the fight. So if you are carrying a weapon you've drawn from there lots of times before, you can Ready it. You see one you know how to use well sitting free and could reach it in a moment or two, you can Move to it and Ready it. You've got one in a gun safe you'd need to move to the next room and fiddle with the combination lock to get, nope, not an option. But no, you can't avoid the disadvantage by not having a weapon. It's about passionately wanting to [kill] - you need to do, if not your absolute best to kill everyone, then at least a credible approach to it subject to the limitations you can't think rationally about what the best method is, or exercise patience or guile should it call for them.

And yeah, I think a race with Bad Temper and Berserk probably can't [have] friends, or a racial culture. They're pretty much stuck being solitary monsters. Berserk is a [really] crippling disadvantage on purpose.

It's not really obvious to me what Berserk is supposed to represent. The first paragraph of the description references "making frenzied attacks", but it's not really clear to me that "frenzied" means "no active defenses" or "determined to kill". "No active defenses" is an easy to conclusion you leap to if you forget that the description (in Characters anyway) explicitly allows Move maneuvers and gives no indication a Move maneuver doesn't give you its usual active defense. Nor is it really clear that you have to use the most lethal means at your disposal—Berserk isn't Bloodlust, it explicitly can require you to pistol-whip someone because reloading is too slow, and needing to promptly move on to the next target after "downing" the first one can easily be read to interfere with "finishing off" a prone enemy.

The lack of any mention of what happens when you're unarmed seems like an oversight rather than a reflection of the rules' intent, but I don't think the intent is nearly as transparent as you imply.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

It's not really obvious to me what Berserk is supposed to represent. .

Um, it represents going berserk, or running amok if you prefer a different cultural slant, a thing that happens to some real world humans occasionally.

And yes, no defenses isn't perhaps the most obvious gaming approximation of that, but it isn't a horrible way to do "don't care if you live or die" and it has been the standard GURPS interpretation more or less forever. That's what that somewhat unclear text at Martial Arts p.179 is attempting to get at with that strange bit about using All Out Attack as a Ready maneuver. It is actually a long standing solution to papering over that same problem of the limited maneuver list not making sense - effectively it was long ago ruled that you could take most maneuvers while Berserk (Change Posture is IIRC the original controversial one), as long as you didn't get to defend while you were doing it. I guess you could reasonably use that to argue you can make a normal Attack while Berserk without getting to defend too, but given that you are suffering the penalty for All Out and getting no defensive benefits, all that does is make you less effective, which hey, gives you an argument for how to munchkinize the rules to be less able to kill your friends if the GM is using that interpretation and is willing to buy that.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Um, it represents going berserk, or running amok if you prefer a different cultural slant, a thing that happens to some real world humans occasionally.

Given the way "berserkers" have taken on a life of their own in fantasy RPGs, with only a tenuous connection to any real historical thing, it is not at all obvious it is trying that hard to model real-world thing!

Originally Posted by malloyd

And yes, no defenses isn't perhaps the most obvious gaming approximation of that, but it isn't a horrible way to do "don't care if you live or die" and it has been the standard GURPS interpretation more or less forever. That's what that somewhat unclear text at Martial Arts p.179 is attempting to get at with that strange bit about using All Out Attack as a Ready maneuver. It is actually a long standing solution to papering over that same problem of the limited maneuver list not making sense - effectively it was long ago ruled that you could take most maneuvers while Berserk (Change Posture is IIRC the original controversial one), as long as you didn't get to defend while you were doing it. I guess you could reasonably use that to argue you can make a normal Attack while Berserk without getting to defend too, but given that you are suffering the penalty for All Out and getting no defensive benefits, all that does is make you less effective, which hey, gives you an argument for how to munchkinize the rules to be less able to kill your friends if the GM is using that interpretation and is willing to buy that.

One strange feature of that Martial Arts sidebar is it appears you can't run at full speed while Berserk, because All-Out Attack only allows half-move. It just seems uncharacteristically poorly thought-out by GURPS standards (I suspect the Martial Arts playtesters just didn't pay that much attention to the issue).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Given the way "berserkers" have taken on a life of their own in fantasy RPGs, with only a tenuous connection to any real historical thing, it is not at all obvious it is trying that hard to model real-world thing!

Berserk is pretty clearly meant to represent the cinematic trope of characters "going berserk," but of course there's an issue that there isn't any fictional agreement on exactly what "going berserk" means, aside from typically losing some degree of control. Bloodlust or Stress Atavism may be closer matches for some versions of berserking, and the really cinematic (or outright supernatural, as in the case of Orson from Record of Lodoss War) cases call for Alternate Form (possibly just a mental Alternate Form, but AF nonetheless). But as for the mechanics, GURPS Berserk falls apart if you take it 100% literally - there's no guidance on what to do if unarmed, a Berserk character who starts out sitting or gets knocked down cannot stand up because Change Posture isn't one of the allowed Maneuvers, you can defend without issue if you didn't attack anyone or with the appropriate penalties if you did a Move and Attack, you cannot use a ranged weapon against any foe closer than 20 yards (even if you should be able to fire at them while running toward them) but can just stand still and empty magazine after magazine (provided it takes no more than a second to reload) at them if they are 21 yards away or further, etc. But the intent seems to be, at least to me, that your character will not defend, will go after whichever enemy is closest, and will prefer to close with the enemy if possible; I'd read the restrictions more loosely and interpret actions that way. Someone with a ranged weapon will use All Out Attack to move forward at half Move while attacking with the weapon, regardless of range (although they may switch to melee/grappling when they get close enough). Someone with a melee weapon will charge the nearest foe, technically using Move but with no defense (and probably with a bonus to any sort of traversal roll - they're essentially using All Out Move, if that existed). Someone who is on their back will stand up before pursuing their target rather than Army-crawling forward and trying to bite their ankles.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

One strange feature of that Martial Arts sidebar is it appears you can't run at full speed while Berserk, because All-Out Attack only allows half-move. It just seems uncharacteristically poorly thought-out by GURPS standards (I suspect the Martial Arts playtesters just didn't pay that much attention to the issue).

There's one exception, and it seems highly appropriate for a berserker - Slams with All Out Attack work with full Move rather than half. So a berserker who's target is further than Move/2 away would likely Slam rather than running up to and striking them.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Given the way "berserkers" have taken on a life of their own in fantasy RPGs, with only a tenuous connection to any real historical thing, it is not at all obvious it is trying that hard to model real-world thing!

As a veteran of many "Rages" in Those Other Games (3.0 to PF2) I can tell you that they aren't that devoted to modelling any Real World thing. What they are doing is the purely Gamist thing of creating a fighter who "self-buffs" at the start of his fights. The closest Gurps thing would be "Explosive Strength" from Bio-tech where you can get +5 ST for 1 FP per Turn. At least that's how I'd translate Rage.

As a parallel ability, in the 3.0 Dragonlance there was a Knight of Solamnia Prestige Class that had a "Strength of Honor" ability where they got to boost their ST at the beginning of fights much like a Raging Barbarian only they were just being "Knightly" and smiting their enemies.

Gurps Berserk can not be a self-buff because it's a net Disadvantage and a relatively serious one too. Even on that basis we have to explain to various newbies that Berserk will get your character killed even if it does make him "unstoppable" for a few seconds.

Going back to Dragonlance they have a civilization of Minotaurs but they aren't berserkers. They're just an Honorable Warrior Race like Klingons. For dF minotaurs an acceptable answer to "What kind of civilization do they have?" is "none". There are no doubt many semi-intelligent species in Df for whom that is true.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

For dF minotaurs an acceptable answer to "What kind of civilization do they have?" is "none". There are no doubt many semi-intelligent species in Df for whom that is true.

Alternatively, you can go a bit against type and create a society that mitigates the problems arising from nearly everyone having Bad Temper and Berserk. Minotaur society would be polite and accommodating, if not outright friendly, to make it less likely for someone's Bad Temper to be triggered (in turn triggering Berserk). When going about their day to day lives, minotaurs may be rather disinclined to be armed (outside of guards, but those may well be chosen for being even-tempered, possibly with Bad Temper and/or Berserk bought all the way down to a Quirk) and wear elaborate (and fashionable!) headwraps that functionally blunt their horns, changing damage type from impaling to crushing and giving between DR 1 and DR 3, depending on thickness, to the horns and anything they strike (this would typically be flexible DR, although the really heavy wraps might count as rigid). There may be constables (who may also be amongst the above guards; being even-tempered would be desirable for both) armed with nets and lassos and the like to capture anyone who goes berserk and (possibly with assistance from nearby civilians) hold them down until the madness passes. They'd need to be quick, of course - every minotaur the berserk one attacks is at risk of going berserk in turn, as are any loved ones or close friends nearby, and if things go really badly you could wind up with basically a berserk supercriticality event.

EDIT: Alternatively, considering the "minotaurs are rage-beasts" trope is due to their similarities to specifically bulls, you could suggest that only the bulls (intact adult males) suffer from Bad Temper and Berserk, and then have most males be gelded prior to adulthood. If only 1 in every dozen or so minotaurs actually suffer from Bad Temper and Berserk, you could probably manage to have a society.

[pawsplay]

Berserk in GURPs is a combination of worst-case Bad Temper with Compulsive All-Out Attacking and a situational Overconfidence.

It's a disadvantage. It's not a super-power. It predates the modern RPG "rage" mechanics craze. It's a mental state and thus subject to the usual room for interpretation. What you can't do is anything deliberately defensive or that shows a concern for your own safety. It is not a professional badge for "barbarian" characters.

If you take Berserk, that's how you're going to die, someday.