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Old 01-12-2011, 06:02 AM   #11
JCD
 
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

Since we all, for the most part, speak English, I don't see that as a meaningful distinction.

But to the compression: If 'A flat with this trill at the end' means maroon, then that is a time factor. It's also impossible, outside of that attunement, to speak on the Corporeal. One can fake it in a pigdin...with a lot of meaning lost.

Look at the song as a cypher/decypher. 'Maroon' is a Note in the Symphony (one which arguably is being used in Angelic). So if I Sing 'Assassinate (the) woman wearing (the) maroon sweater' (I am excising the 'the's because their absence doesn't impact the meaning too much. It's a style, not message thing). So my words are encoded into 5 notes (assassinate woman wearing maroon sweater) and it seeks the guy it's meant for where these notes translate back into images he gets (the universal translation thing is free YMMV). (They do it this way to save Symphonic baud width)

But all this is wandering in the philosophical weeds. I'm looking to have an easily understandable set of rules which don't give someone from the Lollipop Guild license to drrraaaaaggggg tttthhhheeee gggaaammmeee dddooowwwnnn as he discusses philosophically what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Not a slam, just an observation on how prone to abuse something like that might be.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

I think that the wording of the Song description implies 15 words in a vernacular language. I'm tired of my own players slowing down the game by counting words on their fingers, though, so I'm going to just tell them to keep it brief. For that reason alone, I'd count a phone number as just one or a few words.
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Since we all, for the most part, speak English, I don't see that as a meaningful distinction.

But to the compression: If 'A flat with this trill at the end' means maroon, then that is a time factor. It's also impossible, outside of that attunement, to speak on the Corporeal. One can fake it in a pigdin...with a lot of meaning lost.
You can still "speak celestial" on the corporeal realm while in celestial form. You just need to be perceived first. Otherwise, until perceived, you need Eth or Cel Tongues to make contact, (IN core, p. 54). Naturally, vessels are not automatically equipped with Michael's distinction ability, however -- he apparently learned a neat trick to alter vessels. But, as celestial is not a vocalized human language, compression due to direct relation of knowledge is very much apparent in its foundation.

Celestial tongue can tell no lies. It is what it is. What better way to succinctly express that celestial is a direct transmission of knowledge w/o any representational problems or hermeneutics getting in the way. It's literally Realism as Language (which is the world view basis of In Nomine).

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Look at the song as a cypher/decypher. 'Maroon' is a Note in the Symphony (one which arguably is being used in Angelic). So if I Sing 'Assassinate (the) woman wearing (the) maroon sweater' (I am excising the 'the's because their absence doesn't impact the meaning too much. It's a style, not message thing). So my words are encoded into 5 notes (assassinate woman wearing maroon sweater) and it seeks the guy it's meant for where these notes translate back into images he gets (the universal translation thing is free YMMV). (They do it this way to save Symphonic baud width)
Ahh, that's a syntactical (language's structure) observation. Many languages use articles, post/in/prepositions, and the like to grammatically work. Looks like you, by omitting articles, emulated a more Chinese language structure unconsciously. How exciting!

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But all this is wandering in the philosophical weeds. I'm looking to have an easily understandable set of rules which don't give someone from the Lollipop Guild license to drrraaaaaggggg tttthhhheeee gggaaammmeee dddooowwwnnn as he discusses philosophically what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Not a slam, just an observation on how prone to abuse something like that might be.
Oh, I understand. It's always the tension between conception and application -- ideal and mechanics. However, my experience finds 'spirit of the law' usage more workable than 'letter of the law' usage. So, instead of getting lost on the language mechanics of "speaking" a phone number, I'd adjudicate it more loosely to keep the game flowing faster.

We're roughly on the same page, just coming from different angles. I want to retain simplicity by focusing on a nebulous spirit, while you want to retain simplicity by focusing on finite mechanics. (Which is pretty ironic, since I find myself often leaning to finite mechanics for combat! ^_^) Sort of an endless debate, but I offer an invitation to use the other when finite mechanics bring up questions that leave unsatisfactory options, such as the post topic. :)

Last edited by Azel; 01-13-2011 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

I don't have Heaven Hell available but I found this in Core

Quote:
Unlike the divine language, the dark tongue of demons can be spoken in any form, either corporeal or celestial.

Of course, it also says that Demons can speak the divine tongue. But then it goes on to say in the Vassal of War attunement that Demons can't understand their use of Divine Tongue
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

That makes sense. What are lies but misrepresentation? In a language where you cannot represent anything for another (direct transmission of knowledge, Realism as Language), then there can be no misrepresentation (lies), let alone misinterpretation (confusion). As the IPG states, manipulation is an essential outer manifestation of the demonic mindset; thus how can they operate without the invention of lies and confusion?

Thus human speech, using representation and interpretation, is a natural analog to demonic speech. Thus, it's more translatable.

Very reinforcing! Good find, good find.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

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That makes sense. What are lies but misrepresentation? In a language where you cannot represent anything for another (direct transmission of knowledge, Realism as Language), then there can be no misrepresentation (lies), let alone misinterpretation (confusion). As the IPG states, manipulation is an essential outer manifestation of the demonic mindset; thus how can they operate without the invention of lies and confusion?

Thus human speech, using representation and interpretation, is a natural analog to demonic speech. Thus, it's more translatable.

Very reinforcing! Good find, good find.
Well, yes and no. Same page (Hell in Core, don't remember the page) says Demons understand Divine language, but Angels don't understand Helltongue (though they can identify it by their suddenly bleeding ears...). IIRC 'Heaven and Hell' mentioned something about getting a note of Dissonance if an angel learned Helltongue but that might be a mental artifact.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

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Well, yes and no. Same page (Hell in Core, don't remember the page) says Demons understand Divine language, but Angels don't understand Helltongue (though they can identify it by their suddenly bleeding ears...). IIRC 'Heaven and Hell' mentioned something about getting a note of Dissonance if an angel learned Helltongue but that might be a mental artifact.
Don't recall if it was Heaven & Hell, but that is indeed mentioned somewhere (and my books aren't handy). If I remember correctly, angels get dissonance for learning it, AND dissonance every time they speak it...
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

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Don't recall if it was Heaven & Hell, but that is indeed mentioned somewhere (and my books aren't handy). If I remember correctly, angels get dissonance for learning it, AND dissonance every time they speak it...
not everytime they speak it, just if they lie in it. which means a Seraph gets two notes if they lie while speaking helltongue.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

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OK, you've convinced me...one digit equals one word in any other context, and there's no good "game reason" for a special exception. "Tamar--I made it, call me at [six-digit Swedish phone number]...Rinnah" should just barely make the cut, right?
I tried to stay out of this one as much as possible, because I was playing Rinnah -- and my objective at the time was to use the Celestial Song of Tongues to contact Tamar (an NPC -- none of the PC's were available) and have her call me on my cell. IIRC, I was operating under the impression that I could only utter that numbers counted as words. This was my initial phrasing (or something close to it.)

"Tamar, I made it. Please call me. [Area Code] [3-digits] [4-digits]"

When I realized I was one-word over, I was like, "Do I get a discount for phone numbers? If not, I'll drop the please."

Keep in mind, I don't live in Sweden and was operating under the assumption that their phone-numbers were much like our phone system in the states. Also, the "I made it" was important, because I was expressing that I'd just survived Redemption and was trying to reestablish contact. The name, "Rinnah," would probably have no meaning to Tamar, except to recognize it as being Judaic for "a pleasing song."

Essentially, I was trying to squeeze in an extra word and was working with a non-existing phone number from a country I'd never visited. So, I don't think it was an entirely unreasonable request -- as was previously mentioned, there are perfectly human ways to shorten a phone numbers length in words. (i.e. "My name is Rinnah. Please, call! Area code, Eight fifty-five, twenty-eleven." -- although saying, "Area code" and then reciting a series of numbers that are not area codes could lead to some potentially confusing situations...)

I was actually in favor of Inge's initial rule, more or less because I understand that the angelic tongue was hyper-compressed -- and it seemed reasonable in a pinch. I would also have been in favor of spending extra essence, so long as I didn't have to spam a Song and continuously disturb the symphony to give someone my phone number.
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Songs/rule question] Celestial Tongues and phone numbers

Mmm...one word...I might let it slide, particularly if it didn't matter. If it was an emergency? <evil grin>

(Vision: Tamar frantically trying 9 digits of phone number and 1, 9 digits of phone number and 2...9 digits of phone number and... ;-)
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