Origins or Design Base

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Malak Habbalah, if I recall correctly, are listed in one of the appendices of Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels. I think it was in a "scary/punishing" context, too. I believe I also found a possible source for Mercurians in that book, too. It's really excellent.

I am leafing through this book now and just came upon the entry, which reminded me of this thread. It goes: "Malakim ('kings')—an order of angels equated with the virtues. The ruling prince is variously designated Peliel, Uriel, Uzziel, Raphael." (p. 181)

[Archangel Beth]

That's one of them -- the Malak Habbalah, though, are back in the Appendix somewhere. Near the Grigori, I think? I can't dig out the book right yet -- it still has glass shards on it. >_<

[Orlin]

I'm pretty sure that "Kyriotete" is Greek plural for "Lords." You may also see other variant spellings ("Malachim," "Malakh," "Ophanim," etc.) because a lot of the names you see in the core guide come from transliterations of old languages that used different characters.

The only name that ever bothered me was the Djinn, because they seemed like they were just more suitable as Ethereals.

[Archangel Beth]

Yeah, Djinn are pretty obviously, to me, a bit of a stretch along the lines of "What do we call Fallen Cherubim?" I haven't ever found a term I liked more, though, plus changing an entire Band name is probably a bit more errata than SJ would really approve of. *beth snaps her fingers*

[Orlin]

For what it's worth, I had a few ideas. Unfortunately, the more I read up, the more confused I became. There was a point where I'd actually considered re-naming all seven choirs to see if I couldn't make all of them more in-keeping with classical Judeo-Christian themes, but eventually I gave up. Now, after having read a lot of IN fanfiction, the thought of changing anything (even the name of the Djinn) is a stretch.

One really curious thing that I noticed about the way the names for the Choirs is that you guys did your best to put a Greek equivalent as most of the alternate names. If the name was already in Greek (such as is the case with Kyriotates), you guys generally stuck with what was closest to Judeo-Christian lore. There were only a few that caught me off guard (calling the Cherubim "Chayoth" was strange, because I tend to think of the Chayoth Ha-Kodesh, which were the angels described in Ezekiel.) I have to give credit where credit is due; a lot of research must have gone into that.

I just ordered Gustav Davidson's, A Dictionary of Angels: Including Fallen Angels, by the way! I'm really excited.

[Jason]

I'm still lobbying for describing "Djinn" as a colloquial name (like "Stalkers") for a band technically called Se'irim (a demon in Jewish lore described between various sources as being hairy, distinct from shedim ... and identical in appearance to djinn).

You might also find this list of "cosmetic changes" interesting, with different names for various choirs/bands/superiors. Some of the suggestions do introduce points of confusion, though (e.g., renaming Dominic to Daniel raises the question of what to name the angel who stands with Hutriel at the gate of Hell).

[Orlin]

Funny you should say that!

I sometimes have a tendency to go overboard with it, but I started this thread based around precisely the link you gave me. I don't necessarily agree with all of the cosmetic changes (I'm not a huge fan of Dominic, but when thinking on a suitable replacement name I flounder between Daniel and Karmael.) I also have a tendency of wanting to find some source that helps substantiate that x name has y meaning, but I don't know ancient Hebrew so most of the time I think I just accept that I'll usually have to gamble.

For what it's worth, I saw a thread on renaming the Djinn Band. Was that you?

The only Choir name that has ever rubbed me a little the wrong way have been the "Mercurians." I guess for the same reason as the Djinn? I'm kind of stoked about this new book that Beth recommended a few months ago, especially since I just now went back and looked over it.

The thing is, if you don't cement cosmetic changes for your players before the game begins, you invite confusion. The first IN game I ran, I had all these grand ideas for ways to change the naming scheme, history and hierarchy -- but once my players started poking through the core book, it was too difficult for me to tell them, "Oh yeah, I don't use those distinctions. Or that history. Also, I don't have anything written -- well, nothing finished -- but all those names are going to be different."

If I ever run another In Nomine game, there are some things I'd change. I've given a lot of thought to a Heretical History, but...blegh. So much work for something that's already there and already very interesting, and in the end, you sort of have to ask yourself, "What's the purpose?" In my case, it's about turning that brightness level down a notch or two and giving the game a slightly heavier religious overtone.

The main issue I have with IN (apart from the thought that sometimes it's a tad too bright) is Satan. The one thing I really liked about Demon the Fallen (even if I didn't particularly care for Demon the Fallen itself -- too tragic) was that Satan was...such a character. In some ways, he was more of a character than any of the PC's could ever be. The trouble is, if you humanize and romanticize Satan too much, you risk portraying God like an extremely negligent parent.

Currently, I've picked up a book by the name of AD 999. Very interesting story - very inspiring, and something I think I'd recommend for In Nomine fans. Essentially, Satan and Loki are conspiring with one another to bring about both Ragnarok and the Apocalypse, and all of it takes place during a time where human minds were a little more malleable. I've never been big into Historical fantasy (even pseudo-historical fantasy), but this looks like it could be fun.

[Rocket Man]

I noted that the link didn't have an alternate name for Litheroy. May I suggest Ithuriel, which means "Discovery of God?" In Paradise Lost, he's the one who finds a disguised Satan in the Garden of Eden and forces him to resume his true form. (And it looks like Milton found Ithuriel already in the lore, rather than making him up out of whole cloth.)

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Orlin

Funny you should say that!

I sometimes have a tendency to go overboard with it, but I started this thread based around precisely the link you gave me.

Oops. I do have a tendency to repeat myself.

For what it's worth, I saw a thread on renaming the Djinn Band. Was that you?

I didn't start that thread, but I did toss in a couple suggestions. My favorite remains Se'irim, but I share your concern about renaming things after my players have already started playing. They have enough of a hard time as it is remembering the names and properties of things I didn't change.

The main issue I have with IN (apart from the thought that sometimes it's a tad too bright) is Satan. The one thing I really liked about Demon the Fallen (even if I didn't particularly care for Demon the Fallen itself -- too tragic) was that Satan was...such a character. In some ways, he was more of a character than any of the PC's could ever be. The trouble is, if you humanize and romanticize Satan too much, you risk portraying God like an extremely negligent parent.

I am having a good time dealing with this issue in one of my own campaigns, but to do so, I am skirting pretty far from canon. (Don't read this if you play with me.)

Spoiler:  

Running off ideas I pitched in a couple earlier threads, I'm running a setting in which angels haven't been heard from since the Purity Crusade (which the players know) and "Lucifer" is actually more than one person (which my players are slowly discovering clues of). This gives me the chance to explore multiple interpretations of the personality of "the Devil" – as the Prince of Lies (who's running Hell) vs. the Adversary (who's actually interested in serving some greater good) – and kind leaves open the question of whether "God" even exists at all.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Well, I suppose Hebrew could have punsters, too. :-) (Especially since the Choir's teritary In Nomine name is "The Kings.")

More seriously, one word may be derived from the other. From what I can find, Malak, when not used for angels, most commonly referred to a king's envoy/messenger.

Actually, the words for "angel/messenger" (malach) and for "king" (melech) are spelled identically in Hebrew...a situation that may have inspired an Old Testament-style pun when SJG needed an alternate title for the Virtues.