Spears for throwing

[Nils_Lindeberg]

What are you saying Henry, that when you use a Spear Thrower and are throwing Javelins, you need expertise with spear-thrower to get an expertise damage bonus and Pole Weapon Expertise doesn't count? Or are you talking about spear-thrower expertise for hitting people with the spear-thrower used as a club without a javelin?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

What are you saying Henry, that when you use a Spear Thrower and are throwing Javelins, you need expertise with spear-thrower to get an expertise damage bonus and Pole Weapon Expertise doesn't count? Or are you talking about spear-thrower expertise for hitting people with the spear-thrower used as a club without a javelin?

Yes, the same talent applies to both as that is what you have "in hand".

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Still don't understand. :-)
I use way too many words, but you are cryptic sometimes.

[hcobb]

Spear Thrower expertise applies to the thrown damage and the clubbing damage. That is the talent being used in both cases. If you want to apply pole weapons expertise to a throw then don't put anything between your hand and the pole weapon.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Ahh, then I understand what you mean.

I don't agree with you, but I do understand your thinking. As far as I can tell the spear-thrower can be used as a club, and hence weapon expertise probably won't count in melee. And when it comes to the thrown attack I think it is pretty clear that it improves the spear or javelin damage and it is a help, like a cranequin for a crossbow. Nowhere does it say the spearthrower is a missile weapon that uses javelins and spears as ammo. It even states that it can be reused, not reloaded.

And historically speaking, many "spearthrowers" were just a cord fastened at the back end of the spear in order to increase power and sometimes to give the spear a rotation. But even an atlatl is a help and not a different weapon system.

But that is my interpretation and I wouldn't go so far as to say it is RAW, but neither is your interpretation Henry.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

The flinger [spear thrower] also has the option of moving half his movement, instead of 1 hex (a huge advantage when finding flanking shots and the right positioning), he doesn't have to drop his weapon when engaged, his weapon is always ready and in hand and also acts as a deterrent vs. chargers.

Great stuff! A uniquely mobile "missile weapon"**, and the flexibility to either attack from a distance or impale on the close. Scary

The main limitation looks like the number of weapons/rounds that can be carried. So a good answer to the question of how many spears/javelins can be carried becomes more important

PS It seems true by definition that when using a spear thrower to throw a spear, it is spear throwing expertise that is relevant :)

** OK not uniquely mobile, a boomerang allows the same move-and-shoot ability

[hcobb]

Whataboutism a Halfling wizard who knows Spear Thrower (for his staff) but doesn't know pole weapons at all?

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Whataboutism a Halfling wizard who knows Spear Thrower (for his staff) but doesn't know pole weapons at all?

A good point, but still, I would say it is a ranged weapon and you can't have expertise with a ranged weapon, only hand weapons and hand weapons that can be thrown. And since the Spearthrower can be used as a club, it doesn't require a talent to bash someone with it. So I would say that a Spearthrower isn't a weapon at all, just a helping to throw Pole Weapons.

And if you use a Spear Thrower without Pole Weapons I would probably let it slide as a GM, but you could argue that you get a -4DX or have to roll 4vs/DX to hit with it, but you do get the +2DX from the Thrown Weapon talent. And you get the missile range (which is normally worth more than 2 DX and the extra damage to boot, so it is a viable option even without the Pole Weapon talent for a flinger that doesn't have the ST for a boomerang or don't want to use spears in melee).

If we argue that you can have weapon Expertise with a Spearthrower, next, we will have Gun Expertise because you can bash someone's head in with an Arquebus and you probably can throw it at someone too if you are really dedicated and like pole throwing. :-)

In my own house rules, I have increased the basic damage of Thrown Pole Weapons by 1, since they have lower damage because of their melee potential, but that shouldn't impact their throwing potential. As compensation, I have lowered the damage bonus from the Spearthrower to +1 damage and made it into a 2H "weapon/help". A small change, but it means that a thrown javelin or spear is more dangerous than a club, and it should be. And it means that you can't use a Spearthrower with your shield in an easy way, so it will be something you pick for the range bonus and as a specialized skirmisher.

[RobW]

FWIW it's in the description of the Spear Thrower talent that the prerequisites are either Pole Weapon or Thrown Weapon

Expertise and the spear thrower looks like "one of those things that each GM will need to decide for themselves".

My interpretation is that the spear thrower talent is about the combination of the spear thrower and the spear. It's a weapon system used very differently from a spear alone. Personally I feel someone could clearly have expertise or mastery with this system. I feel I see this kind of expertise in sport all the time, eg hockey

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by RobW

FWIW it's in the description of the Spear Thrower talent that the prerequisites are either Pole Weapon or Thrown Weapon

Expertise and the spear thrower looks like "one of those things that each GM will need to decide for themselves".

My interpretation is that the spear thrower talent is about the combination of the spear thrower and the spear. It's a weapon system used very differently from a spear alone. Personally I feel someone could clearly have expertise or mastery with this system. I feel I see this kind of expertise in sport all the time, eg hockey

You are absolutely correct about there being two different prereqs, that is why we discussed spear thrower use without the Pole Weapon talent and why it was still worth it.

It is a slightly different weapon system, and of course you can have expertise level with it, it is just a question if that is Pole Weapon expertise + Spear Thrower talent, or if you can have Expertise with just the Spear Thrower.

If you read the text under Spearthrower p114 it is all about throwing a spear and how the Spear thrower increases the damage when used with a spear, etc. You don't speak the same way how a bow increases the speed and accuracy of an arrow compared to how you use an arrow without a bow. Or how a stone gets bonus damage when thrown with the help of a sling. Or comments about how the sling can be reused after you ready another stone. No talk about reloading, just readying another spear in the case of a Spear and a Spearthrower.

So I would go so far as to say that RAW is that Spear throwers are a 1H weapon, used with a ready spear in the other hand (two hands required) and when you throw a spear and have a spear thrower in your other hand you get that bonus. And the only way to attack with the spear thrower itself is as a club that doesn't require a talent and hence can't be expertise.

But I am willing to say that is RAI or even a house rule. But it makes a lot more sense to me. T least more sense than comparing the speart thrower to a bow or a weapon of its own. And having special rules when the Spear thrower is enchanted as well as the spear that is actually being thrown, etc.