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Old 06-15-2021, 03:59 AM   #11
ArchonShiva
 
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Default Re: What is RAW?

A good example of a clear GURPS-adjacent DFRPG RAW vs RAI is the Bless spell. The description says it modifies the roll, when it’s actually intended (and understood by most people) as modifying the effective skill level for success rolls.
Bless +1, Skill 16, roll of 17:
RAI: failure, but not critical because effective skill was 16+.
RAW: success, because roll was “16”.
Bless +2, skill 17, roll of 8:
RAI: Success with MoS 11.
RAW: critical success, for roll of 6 with skill 16+.

Do NOT attempt the RAW version. RAI version is exploitable enough as it is.
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Last edited by ArchonShiva; 06-15-2021 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Corrected rules reference
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: What is RAW?

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Originally Posted by Whitewings View Post
Pun-pun is not actually possible; the build is illegal several ways, though I don't recall all the ways. But they're not hard to find.
It all depends on which version of D&D one is talking about.

A AD&D1 RAW that I know was a problem was the "Level of the Trainee Character x 1,500 gp = weekly cost during study/training" witht he number of weeks (1-4) being determined by how close to the stated alignment one role played (DMG1 pg 86)

That rule along with randomly generated dungeons was the main reason D&D got the whole Monty Haul aspect. And I am using Monty Haul in its original manner ie not just huge amounts of treasure but the totally random nature of that treasure.

It certainly didn't help that the treasure type was not in the DMG1 but in the Monster Manual.

Heck, Dragon #97's "Only Train When You Gain" (May 1985) pointed out that a 1st level Cleric who was so out of wack with his alignment they were looking at 4 weeks of training would cough up 6,000 gp to get to level 2. "The cleric could throw in his robes and live a very happy life as a merchant if he had 6,000 gp."

The end result of that rule? "Whether from the players' urgings to do something and stop being "unfair," or as the DM's own idea, the next group of orcs the characters kill happened to be guarding a chest full of 8,000 gp, instead of the normal copper or silver, and a magic item that can be sold for additional gold. By some coincidence, this is just enough money to pay for everyone's training."

To be fair GURPS, especially Classic GURPS. isn't immune to that kind of nonsense. Classic: Aliens and Classic: Supers butt heads over the cost of many advantages and since the Compendium I pulled from Classic: Supers the problems continued. Never mind the material after the Compendium I (like Spirits) which threw more conflicting and potentially nonsensical rules the player's way.

GURPS 4e is a lot better but even its RAW go pearshaped at times with tweaks that when you sit down with them make no sense (Recover Energy 20 in low mana vs how Sanctuary works being one example)
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: What is RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
A good example of a clear GURPS RAW vs RAI is the bless spell. The description says it modifies the roll, when it’s actually intended (and understood by most people) as modifying the effective skill level for success rolls.
Bless +2, Skill 15, roll of 17:
RAI: failure, but not critical because effective skill was 16+.
RAW: success, because roll was “15”.
Bless +3, skill 17, roll of 9:
RAI: Success with MoS 11.
RAW: critical success, for roll of 6 with skill 16+.

Do NOT attempt the RAW version. RAI version is exploitable enough as it is.
I don't see how one come up with that as the RAW states: "The effect of a blessing is as follows: All the subject’s die rolls are modified favorably by one point (or more, for a more powerful blessing). The modification will not affect critical successes and failures."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Bless +2, Skill 15, roll of 17:
RAI: failure, but not critical because effective skill was 16+.
RAW: success, because roll was “15”.
Incorrect. The modification will not affect critical successes and failures. Ergo by the RAW 17 is still a critical failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Bless +3, skill 17, roll of 9:
RAI: Success with MoS 11.
RAW: critical success, for roll of 6 with skill 16+.
Incorrect. The modification will not affect critical successes and failures. Ergo by the RAW a roll of 9 is not a critical successes.

This is more an example of not looking at all the involved RAW and the implications of what it is actually saying than any conflict between RAW and RAI.

TL;DR: By the full RAW both RAW examples are wrong.
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: What is RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I don't see how one come up with that as the RAW states: "
Fair, I was using the “revised” wording from SJG’s Powered by GURPS DFRPG in my example, didn’t think to cross check the original version.

EDIT: The (corrected) first example should apply in GURPS as well.
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Last edited by ArchonShiva; 06-15-2021 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: What is RAW?

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Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
Wow there are a lot!
Yeah, that's what I mean by "dated". There's a solid chunk of those that never get used anymore, if they ever were. Still, it's a good page to Ctrl-F through if you have a term you don't get.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: What is RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Fair, I was using the “revised” wording from SJG’s Powered by GURPS DFRPG in my example, didn’t think to cross check the original version.

EDIT: The (corrected) first example should apply in GURPS as well.
Bless +1, Skill 16, roll of 17
RAI: failure, but not critical because effective skill was 16+.
RAW: success, because roll was “16”.

The RAW is still wrong:

"The rules often specify modifiers for certain success rolls. These bonuses and penalties affect the number you are rolling against – your “target number” – and not the total rolled on the dice." (sic, B344)

That "not total rolled on the dice" means a 17 is still a failure regardless of what the modifiers say per B347:

"Regardless of the score you are rolling against, a roll of 3 or 4 is always a success, while a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure."

I will admit have that RAW scattered around like that is a problem but by all the RAW your example is still wrong.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: What is RAW?

On a side note even GURPS Lite (which DFRPG should be using) states;

"Regardless of the score you are rolling against, a roll of 3 or 4 is always a success, while a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure."

It goes on to state: "A roll of 17 is a critical failure if your effective skill is 15 or less; otherwise, it is an ordinary failure."

The only possible hiccup is if in describing the Bless spell DFRPG dropped the ball and forgot the "The modification will not affect critical successes and failures".
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: What is RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
Wow there are a lot!
Yeah, but don't let yourself get bogged down by them.
The denizens of the forums, here, tend toward exhaustively tedious debates about persnickety minutiae (and I mean in that in the most respectful way possible...).

However, when it comes to *actual play* or actually GMing a game, Rule Zero always applies. :)
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Old 06-18-2021, 10:01 AM   #19
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Default Re: What is RAW?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I don't see how one come up with that as the RAW states: "The effect of a blessing is as follows: All the subject’s die rolls are modified favorably by one point (or more, for a more powerful blessing). The modification will not affect critical successes and failures."
Just one man's opinion here. I read that as saying that if you have Skill 15 and have Bless +1 on you, rolls of 3, 4, and 5, are critical successes and a roll of 17 is a critical failure; your skill level has not changed and those are the crit rules for a skill level of 15. This means that since your Bless effects die rolls:
  • 3 --> 2: critical success
  • 4 --> 3: critical success
  • 5 --> 4: critical success
  • 6 --> 5: critical success
  • 7 --> 6: success
  • 16 --> 15: success
  • 17 --> 16: failure
  • 18 --> 17: critial failure
Again, this is just one man's opinion, but it's how I read it.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: What is RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Just one man's opinion here. I read that as saying that if you have Skill 15 and have Bless +1 on you, rolls of 3, 4, and 5, are critical successes and a roll of 17 is a critical failure; your skill level has not changed and those are the crit rules for a skill level of 15. This means that since your Bless effects die rolls:
  • 3 --> 2: critical success
  • 4 --> 3: critical success
  • 5 --> 4: critical success
  • 6 --> 5: critical success
  • 7 --> 6: success
  • 16 --> 15: success
  • 17 --> 16: failure
  • 18 --> 17: critial failure
Again, this is just one man's opinion, but it's how I read it.
I took a quite literal reading of "The modification will not affect critical successes and failures." in that since 17 is a critical failure for base skill 15 than the Bless does not turn it into a normal failure.

Now task modifiers could change that but Bless on its own can't.
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