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Old 06-23-2020, 07:49 AM   #11
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Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
Nothing in the rules says that you get a bonus if someone isn't shooting back. And wouldn't that be covered by the penalties for pop-up attacks, Dodging, Move and Attack, etc., which are all maneuvers you do when you are being shot at?
Not explicitly stated in Basic Set, but Tactical Shooting has a box on Non-Combat Bonuses on pg 9.

For hunting, you'd probably get the bonuses for:
"Lack of psychological pressure gives a bonus, but never for shots at people; add +1 for each of “no risk to self” (nobody else shooting, just-serviced weapon, etc.), “no risk to others” (all allies behind you, no risk of overpenetration or ricochet), and “no political or military stake in the outcome.”

Which makes +3.
And if you've "set yourself up for a good shot," that might count as favourable circumstances too, for at least the +1 of a "typical outdoor range."

sometimes you are firing from slightly awkward position, you are also being very stealthy, controlling your breathing, trying not to spook the animal, etc.
But presumably those are also factors when you're in combat too, which defines the default use of the skill. Anything easier than that situation should give some circumstantial bonuses.
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:21 AM   #12
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
Nothing in the rules says that you get a bonus if someone isn't shooting back.
The baseline for skill levels is -- since GURPS characters are most typically heroic if not cinematic action characters -- their use in adventuring/combat/stressful situations, as opposed to routine daily use. That interpretation is, in fact, stated in the rules:

Originally Posted by Characters, B171
In nonadventuring situations when you have lots of time to prepare and face minimal risk, the GM may give you +4 or more to skill.
Seems like Hans was being a touch chintzy in Tactical Shooting :)
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:40 AM   #13
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

The key phrase is plenty of time to prepare. That is covered in the Aiming rules.
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Old 06-23-2020, 09:04 AM   #14
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

I think "lots of time to prepare" is attempting to include pressure situations that don't actually involve combat or personal injury in the "adventuring and thus baseline" category. Feel free to file Aim or Telegraph Attack in the category if you like, but those bonuses are accounted for by specific maneuvers. The general rule is trying to be broader than just combat, and allow a need for heroic behavior in other situations as well.

A target range both allows all the time you care to use (unless you're somehow getting really stressed out about your range's hourly rental fee) and also involves no risk, so it falls into both clauses.
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Old 06-23-2020, 09:11 AM   #15
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

One thing I've heard some shooters mention is that, when possible, you basically keep aiming until you get the sight picture you need for, say, 90% accuracy (or whatever is acceptable to you*), then you attack. That's a lot easier with a firearm than a bow, of course, as you need to just support the weight of the firearm rather than also needing to hold a drawn bow at full tension. Still, this may be something accounting for your accuracy - a GURPS character can be relied on to attack after 3 seconds of Aim, while a responsible hunter isn't going to even attempt an attack unless he's got a great deal of confidence he can put the target down quickly (in this case, a shot to the Vitals). Of course, something that may be missing from your initial analysis is that many deer are SM+1, and I think hitting the vitals of a deer from side-on (which I assume is where you're firing from) is proportionally easier than generally hitting human vitals, which may be good for a further +1.

As for translating the above into GURPS rules, the previously-mentioned "On Target" article does a pretty solid job of this (also, it updates All Out Attack (Determined) to be +2 at range). An alternative option is to allow characters to take a -2 to their attack roll so that on a "miss" they don't attack (whether or not this spoils Aim like an attack would is up to the GM). There should still be the chance the character misestimated things, however, so I'd say with MoF 7+ the character still attacks (and misses).

*Obviously, this isn't a shooter looking down the sights and thinking "Hmmm, this is 89%, I'll keep trying" vs "Ah, 90%, I shall fire/loose/whatever," but rather "I think I can hit, but this isn't quite good enough" vs "Target's dead in my sights, engage."
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Old 06-23-2020, 09:13 AM   #16
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

Which is fine for plinking, and it does explain why people are much more likely to be killing by their own guns during a home invasion because they have an unrealistic assessment of their competence. I would actually suggest that most target practice benefits from a +10 bonus because the target is stationary and because the situation is low stress, allowing the average person to hit a target at 100 yards at a default without much difficulty if they aim. With an effective skill 6 from default when shooting a rifle, they would receive a +7 to hit from aiming for four turns, and the target practice bonuses would cancel the range penalties.
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Old 06-23-2020, 03:56 PM   #17
Join Date: Jul 2013
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
...and Mongol archers were said to be able to hit a man from a galloping horse at 100 yards more than half the time!...
I think that has to do more with the "historian" making an exaggeration roll at +8.
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Old 06-23-2020, 05:34 PM   #18
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
So I'm doing a historical campaign set during the 100 years war, and I wanted to come up with rules for draw weights and bows. Do these rules exist anywhere? I have a little archery experience:

As for skill, I can hit a bullseye at 40 yards pretty often (90%+) and have shot White-tailed deer at that range in the heart with both my bows. So to hit a deer in the vitals at 40 yards has the following modifiers: Range (-8), Heart/Vitals (-3), Accuracy 3, Extra two turns to aim +2, All-Out Attack (Determined) +1. So assuming that my effective skill is 14 (90% accuracy), that would mean I need a base skill of 16? That seems too high to me, but I'm probably missing some modifiers. Now I know people will say that my target accuracy is not the same as combat accuracy, but I respectfully disagree. Hunting is stressful, and I've shot many deer (longest was 60 yards) and never missed a lethal shot (I've shot six deer total). I'm not exceptional or prolific as far as bow hunters go, and my 84-year old father went bow hunting last year and shot and killed a deer at 60 yards with his 55-lb recurve. He's been bow hunting for years, but never practices archery since he was a kid! He is a bit of a freak... Any better insights of converting real world accuracy to GURPS skill would be appreciated.

My apologies for the long post, but archery is an important part of the campaign and since all the players are archers, we tend to talk in terms of draw weight, draw length, arrow weight, etc. This was our attempt to convert our knowledge to GURPS rules. If these rules have been covered elsewhere, please direct me, and please offer some criticism and feedback. Thanks!
I chopped your quote up a little because I think you have the mechanics worked out, but are still dwelling on the skill part. At the end of the day you arent going to be able to fully simulate your skill without making some kind of judgement calls that really go beyond "Game play" and move into "accurate simulation".

There are a couple of things that are going to get a little handwavy when you try to resolve your percentage of success math with the "Your unmodified skill level is called your base skill. It measures your odds of success at an “average” task under adventuring conditions – in other words, in a stressful situation where the consequences of failure are significant." B.171

The problem there is that statement is handwavy :) It seems specific, but then when you do the math it makes little sense with regard to that statement. Trust me, this was a HUGE thread not that long ago where I was having this same issue. What constitutes an average task, adventuring conditions, and normal stress... my start point might be where you would say cinematic level... or the other way around. For that matter what does "Proficient" actually mean in Game play vs Real Life simulation if you really wanna get in the weeds about this.

Here are the things YOU as GM will have to resolve. The formula for distance is based on 1yd being the 0 point. I disagree with that, but, you as GM have to take responsibility for any variation in the rules. I think this makes bows far too inefficient and penalizes what "proficient" should be and chose to move the zero point to 10yds, then let it scale as it was in the rules.

Aiming actually works pretty well game mechanics wise IMO (I have tried it myself at the range and its a bit of a judgement thing but the mechanics are close enough for game play). The other range, size and speed stuff works fine for me, so I only made that one concession for my games cause I like it that way, and it works for me

The 100yrs war wasn't an archer shooting bullseyes. It was ranks of bow archers laying down semi-accurate suppression at general ranges as far as 300m. With maybe 1 or 2 arrows quickly (with little aiming) as the opponents closed in distance. Or its was ranks of relatively unskilled (and largely ineffective) but cheap crossbowmen shooting volleys of bolts from just behind the main skirmish lines or mixed in infantry style charges. In that I would say your skill assessment as a hunter is close enough for Game Play and probably not far off from a basic Bow Archer on the battle field though its possible your skill wouldnt apply to a 250m volley without some training.

You would definitely have a modifier for HQ weapon on your recurve IMO. Compared to something from 1400 we have superior technological understanding, materials, production and arrows. This isnt to say that there wasn't handmade stuff that might have been similar in qualities to yours, but that would have been the costly exceptions rather than a battlefield bow in the hands of "the basic Archer".

Your Compound bow would have to be regarded as something 3-4TLs higher than the recurve putting you in the 8 to 16 times value, provided the GM was even inclined to allow such a thing. It would border on Ultra-Tech for this TL.

Warbond is really on the ragedy edge of "Cinematic". I allow it because its fun flavor (especially if they lose or break the item) and it doesnt really push the mechanics beyond the realm of heroic in my mind. This is another handwavy thing IMO, cause if you think about it warbond would have to apply to the complete combination of bow AND arrow. The arrows are not accurately machine produced, they are hand made with all the potential variations in manufacture, material and tech. I shoot competitions with guns and I can promise you the ammo makes a difference no matter how familiar you are with your gun (when you are talking about accuracy).

A full frontal torso shot to the thorasic triangle on a human is equitable in size to a vitals shot on a deer IMO so I wouldnt mod that. However you might argue that the deer is more visable as an overall larger SM+1 target so still award a +1 vs a front facing human (though a charging horse is larger still, in your War scenario).

To wrap up, I wouldn't get to worked up trying to equate your actual probability of success with game mechanics, it will only make you nuts and you could never account for every variable of every shot. The more granular you go, the harder it is to account for all the branches of variables. Figure out where your rule of thumb spot is for basic skill, Expert, Master and Cinematic, if it applies, and let it go from there. If your intention is to SIMULATE a battle from that war then some of these things may not apply to you. If your just wanting to get the right feel/flavor for people to be able to immerse in the idea of that era then the don't dwell to much on trying unify reality with GURPS mechanics, it not a productive use of time. And finally, you arent from 1400, you know a lot more than they did in terms of overall knowledge and you have no idea how that might affect things if you really want to get nit picky about your relative skill levels.
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Old 06-23-2020, 05:35 PM   #19
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol
Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

There is a Bow perk to allow you to 'buy' up ST for a Bow see PUp27.

Others are:

Eye for Distance PU2p13

In PU1 there is Far Shot and Guided Shot p8

You could adapt Gunslinger or use Weapon's Master (30pts version).

But it all depends on the balance between fun and realism. Realistically an Archer can either be accurate or fire for distance, alternatively you can go all 'Robin Hood Style' and with that you should look into making an Archery Talent.
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Old 06-23-2020, 06:03 PM   #20
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Bow draw weights and skill

One of the problems with with accuracy in GURPS is that the adjustments for target motion are much too small. If I'm using a mouse, I can click on a letter in a page (typical SM -13, at a distance of 2' or so for a total of -10) pretty easily, implying an effective skill of 20+. This drops very rapidly if I'm trying to click on a moving object, even when in GURPS terms the object is moving nowhere near fast enough for its speed to affect accuracy (it would basically have go from one edge of the screen to the other every second to change range/speed modifiers in GURPS).

Another problem, endemic to mapped games, is that you do very little shooting at shadows and generally have way more time to make optimized decisions than your character has.

A third problem, inherent to IgoUgo turn-based systems, is that in any situation where both you and your opponent are capable of effective action, you are motivated to fire sooner than your opponent, but you can't really push your aiming to go a tenth of a second faster because that's more than the resolution of the game clock.
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