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Old 08-17-2021, 03:55 PM   #11
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Inspired:

Ped Exploiter Bike -- Heavy Cycle, Heavy suspension, Small Cycle power plant w/SC, 10-pt CA (Power Plant), 2 Motorcycle Puncture-Resistant tires, Cycle Windshell w/10 pts extra Plastic armor, Cyclist w/BA and PFE and 10-pt CA, 2 Passengers each w/BA and 10-pt CA and Heavy Anti-Vehicular Rifle, Sloped Plastic Armor: F10, B8, 2 10-pt Cycle Wheelguards, Acceleration 5, Top Speed 100, HC 2 (3 @60mph), 1298 lbs., $6338
The cycle shell unfortunately restricts everyone to a side arc.

You are also not including pedestrian equipment against the weight limit. Whilst this is permissible if you aren't using GE, it is a bit too cheesy when your primary weapon systems are pedestrian. You may as well go the whole hog and say "tripod mounted twin laser" only 5 GE :)
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Old 08-17-2021, 05:35 PM   #12
juris
 
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Location: CA
Default Re: Silly Cars

I am religiously against the alt encumbrance rules, heretic ;)

Right, this is a crazy side shooter bike which is why I armored the windshell so much :)

Edit: Hence the name of the bike...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
The cycle shell unfortunately restricts everyone to a side arc.

You are also not including pedestrian equipment against the weight limit. Whilst this is permissible if you aren't using GE, it is a bit too cheesy when your primary weapon systems are pedestrian. You may as well go the whole hog and say "tripod mounted twin laser" only 5 GE :)

Last edited by juris; 08-17-2021 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:54 AM   #13
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
I am religiously against the alt encumbrance rules, heretic ;)

Right, this is a crazy side shooter bike which is why I armored the windshell so much :)

Edit: Hence the name of the bike...
Fair enough, in that case let's double down on that :)

Max Exploiter Bike
by Swordtart:
Heavy Cycle; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Small Cycle PP w/SCs;
2 Solid Radial tires.
Driver. Passenger, pillion Passenger;
HD Shocks; 10 pt.
Plastic Windshell w 10 points armour.
23 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 13 R: 0 L: 0 B: 10 T: 0 U: 0);
1x10 pt. Plastic Guards F; 1x10 pt. Plastic Guards B.
Cost: $6,354, Wgt: 1,298,
HC: 3 (4), Top Speed: 100, Accel: 5.

This is the base platform. With the space saved by scrapping the CA you can now fit 2 2-space tripod weapons (that are only 5 GE each) that can both fire into both side arcs (like those tripod twin lasers I mentioned). You have enough HC and handling mods to withstand serious hazards without rolling. Any hit on a bike can at most destroy one component per strike so you will actually need to shoot off both passengers to disarm it.

It's silly expensive for what it is so an admirable fit to the brief. A bike with a pair of twin-lasers pointed at you would be an alarming experience :)
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:54 PM   #14
juris
 
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Default Re: Silly Cars

Hmm, aren't tripod weapons supposed to be fired... from a tripod fixed on the ground, not Rambo style from the hip?

UACFH is confusing. It says tripod weapons cannot be used by normal passengers in a vehicle (p142). But then it says a passenger who wants to use a tripod weapon takes an additional space.

That's some crystal clear writing

I'd say if you want to fire tripod-like weapons from inside a vehicle you'd have to use an articulated mount from Chassis and Crossbow. If you just wanted to cart them around, I'd be fine with your crazy bike, but then your guys would be Dragoons and would have to dismount to fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Fair enough, in that case let's double down on that :)

Max Exploiter Bike
by Swordtart:
Heavy Cycle; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Small Cycle PP w/SCs;
2 Solid Radial tires.
Driver. Passenger, pillion Passenger;
HD Shocks; 10 pt.
Plastic Windshell w 10 points armour.
23 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 13 R: 0 L: 0 B: 10 T: 0 U: 0);
1x10 pt. Plastic Guards F; 1x10 pt. Plastic Guards B.
Cost: $6,354, Wgt: 1,298,
HC: 3 (4), Top Speed: 100, Accel: 5.

This is the base platform. With the space saved by scrapping the CA you can now fit 2 2-space tripod weapons (that are only 5 GE each) that can both fire into both side arcs (like those tripod twin lasers I mentioned). You have enough HC and handling mods to withstand serious hazards without rolling. Any hit on a bike can at most destroy one component per strike so you will actually need to shoot off both passengers to disarm it.

It's silly expensive for what it is so an admirable fit to the brief. A bike with a pair of twin-lasers pointed at you would be an alarming experience :)
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Old 08-18-2021, 04:12 PM   #15
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Hmm, aren't tripod weapons supposed to be fired... from a tripod fixed on the ground, not Rambo style from the hip?

UACFH is confusing. It says tripod weapons cannot be used by normal passengers in a vehicle (p142). But then it says a passenger who wants to use a tripod weapon takes an additional space.

That's some crystal clear writing

I'd say if you want to fire tripod-like weapons from inside a vehicle you'd have to use an articulated mount from Chassis and Crossbow. If you just wanted to cart them around, I'd be fine with your crazy bike, but then your guys would be Dragoons and would have to dismount to fire.
No-one is suggesting firing tripod weapons from the hip here. I think the logic is that a tripod could be as easily fixed on any horizontal surface, not just the ground. Pick-up beds are the most usual example, but there are plenty of others e.g. mounted on the floors of vans and helos to be fired out of the side doors. I cited a RL example where a tripod weapon (on an actual tripod) was mounted on a bike as fielded equipment by a real army and could be fired whilst mounted (as well as dismounted). That passes the CW letter of the rules and real-life credible test for me.

I take "Normal" passenger to be the 1 space variety. I therefore saw no confusion. It is open to interpretation if other non-"normal" passenger (bus passengers take up 2 spaces for example) also require an extra space (I'd say yes).

That said pillion passenger is pushing it, but technically a pillion passenger suffers no disadvantage vs a conventional passenger on a bike (whatever that means) as long as you pay the extra space, it is legal.

Articulated mounts (and pintles* for that matter) are different things you can take a tripod mount off a truck bed and put it on the ground, you can't do that with articulated mounts.

*Hmm. Pintles take up no space and can be mounted on a vehicle that has no top armour. A bike has no top armour (unless it has a cycle shell). So another approach would be to mount the weapons on those instead... In effect we can have a bike with two side sponsons :) Of course these weapons would definitely add weight even under the GE pedestrian equipment rule. Wait out...

Last edited by swordtart; 08-19-2021 at 03:20 AM. Reason: Thinking on pintles...
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:49 AM   #16
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
UACFH is confusing. It says tripod weapons cannot be used by normal passengers in a vehicle (p142). But then it says a passenger who wants to use a tripod weapon takes an additional space.
Yet another (see Gunners in a sidecar thread) time where the lines between human/driver/gunner/passenger are blurred.

As far as I can tell, that's the only mention of "normal passenger" I can find. I guess there are abnormal passengers?

I'd be fine with this:

Tripod weapons cannot be used by passengers in a vehicle. A gunner who wants to use a tripod weapon takes an additional space.
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Old 08-19-2021, 01:25 PM   #17
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Sidestepping the whole passenger tripod question :)

Pintle Bike by Swordtart:
Heavy Cycle; CA Frame; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Medium Cycle PP with 10 pts CA;
2 Hvy Duty OR tires, HD Shocks.
Driver with 10pt CA, 2xPassenger each with 10pt CA;
2xPintle mounted twin linked APHR + laser scope;
10 pts. Plastic (F: 5 R: 0 L: 0 B: 5 T: 0 U: 0);
Cost: $9,810, Wgt: 1,271,
HC: 3, Top Speed: 115, Accel: 5.

The design leaves 29lb for personal equipment (suggest ABV for all and some grenades). Pintles could be in any arc but side arcs are probably most sensible as this provides the greatest chance to concentrate firepower with minimal manuevering.

Well heeled gangers might upgrade to laser guidance to put the bite on at longer range, but 10K for a bike is already steep.

My final comment on tripods:

Why should a tripod gunner require 3 spaces? The extra space for a gunner station was to account for controls for the weapon systems for that gunner position, a tripod weapons doesn't have those.

I'll stick with my interpretation of adding one space to requirements for the person (either driver or gunner or passenger) but also requiring the optional encumbrance system to be used.
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Old 08-19-2021, 02:44 PM   #18
juris
 
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Default Re: Silly Cars

Pretty sure pintle mounts are not allowed on a cycle. CWC 2.5 p 106 - a pintle must be mounted adjacent to a sun roof or convertible hardtop. Basically, it's a chassis and crossbow turret. It also says 'gunner' - so I don't think a passenger would be able to use one.

Agree with K - a full gunner with an extra space could probably fire a tripod weapon from a vehicle... which is very similar to an articulated mount btw. Articulated mounts are better as they can be fired by a passenger (from what I remember)

However, I applaud the arguments re: pedestrians firing from inside vehicles - the rules for this always caused great arguments in my group :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Sidestepping the whole passenger tripod question :)

Pintle Bike by Swordtart:
Heavy Cycle; CA Frame; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Medium Cycle PP with 10 pts CA;
2 Hvy Duty OR tires, HD Shocks.
Driver with 10pt CA, 2xPassenger each with 10pt CA;
2xPintle mounted twin linked APHR + laser scope;
10 pts. Plastic (F: 5 R: 0 L: 0 B: 5 T: 0 U: 0);
Cost: $9,810, Wgt: 1,271,
HC: 3, Top Speed: 115, Accel: 5.

The design leaves 29lb for personal equipment (suggest ABV for all and some grenades). Pintles could be in any arc but side arcs are probably most sensible as this provides the greatest chance to concentrate firepower with minimal manuevering.

Well heeled gangers might upgrade to laser guidance to put the bite on at longer range, but 10K for a bike is already steep.

My final comment on tripods:

Why should a tripod gunner require 3 spaces? The extra space for a gunner station was to account for controls for the weapon systems for that gunner position, a tripod weapons doesn't have those.

I'll stick with my interpretation of adding one space to requirements for the person (either driver or gunner or passenger) but also requiring the optional encumbrance system to be used.
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Old 08-19-2021, 03:56 PM   #19
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Pretty sure pintle mounts are not allowed on a cycle. CWC 2.5 p 106 - a pintle must be mounted adjacent to a sun roof or convertible hardtop. Basically, it's a chassis and crossbow turret. It also says 'gunner' - so I don't think a passenger would be able to use one.
UACFH includes the additional options "or in a pickup bed or open-topped vehicle (one that has no top armor)." This has also been discussed in ADQ&A if memory serves and the shorter definition in CWC2.5 precludes using it from a pickup bed, one of the most obvious real-world applications.

The use of the word gunner might mean only a gunner, but it makes no sense since no vehicle targeting systems are used with a pintle. I suspect it is simply to identify the rules apply to the person firing the weapon (who in everyday parlance would be the gunner - and who uses Gunner skill in CW). The entry for searchlights also specifies at one point a gunner, by your interpretation that would mean drivers couldn't operate a search light to blind someone contradicting the general principle that drivers can fire any vehicular weapon.

On the other hand I hadn't even considered pintles on a cycle (other than a sidecar - which the 2.5 definition would also not allow) until this thread. If I can find a real example then I'd allow it, until then it's provisional for me.

EDIT:
OK "motorcycle technical" is also a thing :)

Last edited by swordtart; 08-20-2021 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:26 PM   #20
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
...
Agree with K - a full gunner with an extra space could probably fire a tripod weapon from a vehicle... which is very similar to an articulated mount btw. Articulated mounts are better as they can be fired by a passenger (from what I remember)
Just had a dig into Duel Track chassis and crossbow rules and it's worth pointing out that "Gunners only take up one space in these older vehicles, because the fancy targeting equipment that takes up all that room in modern vehicles doesn't exist in these vehicles." So there is no actual difference between C&C passengers and gunners.

Of course C&C is not fully compatible with CWC 2.5 as much of the equipment changed and only the ring mount made it into the UACFH.

In order to use every cheap trick in the book...

Articulator by Swordtart:
Heavy Cycle; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Medium Cycle PP w/SCs with 10 pt CA;
2 PR OR tires , HDHTMs, Overdrive;
Driver with 10 pt CA; Gunner with 10 pt CA; Pillion with 10 pt CA;
Articulated Mount with AVR (ext mag + Las Scope);
10 pts. Plastic (F: 5 R: 0 L: 0 B: 5 T: 0 U: 0);
Cargo 56lb
Cost: $5,880, Wgt: 1,300,
HC: 3, Top Speed: 120 (77.5, 137.5), Accel: 10 (20, 5).

56lb is left for personal equipment above and beyond the AVR (which in this configuration is as effective as a MG but at significantly less weight and cost). A dedicated gunner for the AVR to make sure you hit (and 20 shots and a laser). The Gunner typically has a ABV with two more extended AVR mags. The pillion is just there to bring along a prospect to help loot and drop smoke grenades for cover.

Can the pillion use an articulated mount? If so, I might have dropped the Gunner and freed up a space for something heavier on the mount (HAVR as a minimum), but it is here that I run into difficulties as the capacity of the articulated mount is undefined. A tripod can carry up to a 2 space weapon. The Pintle comes in two varieties for one space or two space. The articulated mount is less clear.

A 3 GE hand weapon takes up no extra space (though the weight must be counted against the chassis limit - good luck identifying what that weight would be though). Larger hand weapons* take up one space on an Articulated Mount.

So does this mean any vehicular weapon can be put in an articulated mount and only add one space? I would be inclined still to limit it to a maximum of 2 spaces. What about linked weapons? I can link them on a tripod so I should be able to link them on an articulated mount. Can I have twin MGs? Seems reasonable. What about multiple SMGs? How many? More than one would mean more that 3 GE were on the mount, so it needs the extra space, but could I have 3, 4, 10?

The articulated mount needs a lot more work before it can be used out of the C&C niche where these questions do not arise. I think the tripod rules and pintle rules replace the mount (for post C&C games) and make it obsolete which is why it never made it into CWC 2.5 or UACFH.

*Hand weapon explicitly includes the tripod MG and tripod RR that were published in the 2035 AU catalogue (which also introduced the tripod light laser but this was presumably omitted as they were not available in C&C). Since then however the tripod weapons rules have been made generic and any vehicular weapons can be pedestrianised.

Last edited by swordtart; 08-21-2021 at 03:47 PM.
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