[Basic] Arrow in the Eye

[jacobmuller]

A thought has been a niggling me: during a combat session a while back, a berserk pc took an arrow in the eye.
I'd previously been corrected on Eye injuries - they don't detract from the damage your Brain takes.
What's bothering me now is: does Eye Injury and Brain Injury stack?
eg that Eye of the Berserker, damage 7 Imp. Definitely 28 Injury to the Brain. But should it also have been 14 Injury to the Eye? Total 42HP Injury?
This was prompted by the tag-line to Crippling Injury @B421 regarding limits to injury sustained as crippling wounds, "Exception: No such limit applies to the eyes!"

PS the berserker, in this instance, died, instantly:D so no RetCons:P

[Ulzgoroth]

You don't pile up separate injury by hit location, except in special cases which are quite distinctively marked (extreme dismemberment comes to mind).

Getting hit in the eye is the same as getting hit in the Skull except
-Skull DR doesn't apply, but any eye-protecting DR does.
-You probably lose the eye, in accordance with BS399 and BS421.
That said, it isn't defined as getting hit in the brain. It hurts the same way and for the same reason, but it's still an eye hit.

The "Exception: No such limit applies to the eyes!" is necessary because that section has defined eyes as a body part subject to crippling. And stated a damage cap as a general rule for such body parts. Without the exception, being shot in the eye could not cause more than 2 injury, which would be pretty silly.

[Maz]

I agree with everything except this:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That said, it isn't defined as getting hit in the brain. It hurts the same way and for the same reason, but it's still an eye hit.

An eye hit IS a hit to the brain, it just enters through the eye socket instead of though the skull.

If you have Injury Tolerance (No Brain) and is shot in the eye, you do not take x4 dam.

But I am unsure what you mean by "defined as".

[Tomsdad]

The way I understand / run it is this:

Assuming a 10-15HT* target, the eye is a 1hp (HT/10) location.

7 points of damage (before multipliers which are going to vary by application here)

1st point of damage hits the eye and due to the x2 imp effect it actually destroys because the eye's taken double what's needed to cripple it (2hp).

6 points carry on to the brain, doing a 24 point wound. The total HP lost is 26 For HT saves for staying alive, concious** and bleeding.

I.e the eye is crippled (and then destroyed) but acts as a 1 point of DR for the brain. In much the same way as one limb acts as DR (at HT/2) for the next in extreme dismemberment in MA.

Either way even if he makes his HT to not die straight away he's going to bleed at -7 every 30 seconds (don't have my books with me, the brain is an extra -2 to bleeding and 30 seconds IIRC)

*can't remember do you round down here? In which case it's 10-19HT

**Assuming he's not already down from the HT-10 knockdown for a major wound to the 'brain' of course.

[sir_pudding]

Really y'all are making this way overcomplicated. There's no such thing as a "brain" location.

Originally Posted by B399

Impaling, piercing, and
tight-beam burning attacks can specifically
target the eye. Injury over HP/10
blinds the eye; otherwise, treat as a
skull hit without the extra DR 2!

The injury multiplier for the Eye is x4 (except for Toxic) just like the Skull.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Really y'all are making this way overcomplicated. There's no such thing as a "brain" location.

The injury multiplier for the Eye is x4 (except for Toxic) just like the Skull.

My only problem with that is if I do a 1hp wound with nuisance attack (say a very high ROF birdshot with a +5/6 to hit) I've just done a 1x4 hp wound per pellet which can't be treated by First aid only surgery and will bleed pretty quickly (IIRC)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

My only problem with that is if I do a 1hp wound with nuisance attack (say a very high ROF birdshot with a +5/6 to hit) I've just done a 1x4 hp wound per pellet which can't be treated by First aid only surgery and will bleed pretty quickly (IIRC)

Doesn't Birdshot have a fractional armor divisor?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Doesn't Birdshot have a fractional armor divisor?

Good point, but I never really been sure how that works with eyes though. I know bare skin gets DR1 against fractional divisors, but eyes?

However given a 1d-2 (0.5)* pi- on the torso you get the following range of results:

1 = 0
2 = 0
3 = 0
4 = 0
5 = 1
6 = 1

on the eye it would be

1 = 0
2 = 0
3 = 0
4 = 0
5 = 4
6 = 8

Pretty all or nothing (maybe not necessarily unrealistic though).

Obviously we dealing with the very small here so weird system artefact results are going to be factor.

It we do it as point blank shotgun range it becomes IIRC 4d-8 (1d-2)*4 with DR of 8 (1 / 0.5)*4

On the torso you'll do no damage on average with max damage of 28-8-8*0.5 = 6 (you will need to roll a minimum of 17 to score 1pt of damage) and the eye it would be 28-8-8*4 = 48 (again you'll need to roll of 17 to score damage but it's 4 pts per point over 16)

*I think that's right for birdshot?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

My only problem with that is if I do a 1hp wound with nuisance attack (say a very high ROF birdshot with a +5/6 to hit) I've just done a 1x4 hp wound per pellet which can't be treated by First aid only surgery and will bleed pretty quickly (IIRC)

Shooting someone's eye out seems pretty nasty to me even if you only do it with birdshot. (I'm going to skip over the question of whether birdshot actually bounces off eyes because I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't even if the rules imply it does.)

However, it's not that huge a deal. Yes, lose 4 HP, yes, first aid won't work and it bleeds every 30 seconds. But there's no penalty to the bleeding HT rolls. Which means that unless you have particularly low HT or a bleeding disorder you'll tend to stop bleeding on your own without losing very many HP to it.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Shooting someone's eye out seems pretty nasty to me even if you only do it with birdshot. (I'm going to skip over the question of whether birdshot actually bounces off eyes because I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't even if the rules imply it does.)

However, it's not that huge a deal. Yes, lose 4 HP, yes, first aid won't work and it bleeds every 30 seconds. But there's no penalty to the bleeding HT rolls. Which means that unless you have particularly low HT or a bleeding disorder you'll tend to stop bleeding on your own without losing very many HP to it.

Is there not a further bleeding penalty for 'skull' wounds (I don't have my books with me)?

Either way you still need three in row (or a critical success) to stop bleeding, assuming a HT10 period that's what a 12.5% (plus a little bit for the chance of a crit) chance? Considering you have 50% chance of losing a HP every 30 seconds while your waiting for that to happen, I'd say its pretty nasty! A HT10 person is reaching -1xHP on average in 16 mins, I don't think eyes bleed that much (IIRC they only have pretty small capillaries in them no significant blood vessels).

The big thing here I think is the lack of first aid. Where as if you treat the eye as separate, I'd argue that you can use first aid.


And that's 4hps per pellet, I can't remember the ROF for these thing but IIRC it comes pretty close to negating -9 to hit the eye, so we could reasonably be talking about more than one.

If we also don't give the eye DR1 (which I think we both agree on) then 1d6-2 x4 is

1=0
2=0
3=4
4=8
5=12
6=16

as opposed to treating the eye as separate, and anything getting past going to be a 'skull' hit (sans skull) 1d6-2 pi-

1=0
2=0
3=1 (eye crippled)
4=1 (eye crippled)
5=1 (eye crippled)
6=2 (eye destroyed as 2 points of damage hit) skull hit with 1 (as the eye soaked 1 point from the 2) so a 4hp wound (5 in total)*

However another good reason to wear goggles or wrap arounds (it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye)!

*I think may be slightly off in how I apply the two multipliers in succession their but I think the result in more reasonable than 0,0,1,1,1,1+8