Questions while reading rules more accurately...

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Farmer

That wasn't the point. The point is how much you can do in a second.

Ah, fair enough then.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I'm suddenly wondering ... The problem may come from the fact that it is named "retreat", as many problems from reality checks with IQ come from the fact that GURPS intelligence is not just real IQ.

Indeed, what we name retreat in reality (fleeing away from the attack) is much more all-out defense (or even all-out defense with retreat, +5!) than what GURPS names the retreat option.

That could make things worse but I don't think it's the crux in that matter.

Consider this:
You are under a divine curse and have to kill someone with your two handed longsword today or you flat out die.

To your luck, another two handed swordsman with a deathwish challenges you at noon.

You begin the fight, it's fierce, you dance around the battlefield and during a particularily heated moment of battle the other guy suddenly gets backed up against a wall and you step forward, suddenly you're almost fully pressed against him and he gives up.

How do you swing now?
Unless you're going to grab your sword in a sort of blade grip to garrote the guy.
Youd have to step back for normal long blade fighting or otherwise you CANNAE SWING.

You're not retreating in that moment. You're spacing yourself so you can use the weapon properly.
That's what the guys in the sparring video are doing.
They're moving around so they can use their weapon.

That's what boxers are doing when they move back and forth, yes it's movement pressure too, but they're also moving so they can attack.

If a boxer moves into the other boxer none of them can box anymore ;-;
If a long sword fighter moves into a long sword fighter, they'd better grab daggers at that point.

THAT is the movement you see during those fights ;-; the normal standard fighting. It's not a retreat, it's not even an extended dogdge, just enough so you can stay effective and not get hit, no extra distance cause you'd have to re-tread that if the other guy isn't falling for it.

Y'all are just lucky that the rules say it's 'one hex' to do that fancy retreating dodge.
If a magical force pulled your fighter away 100 yards every time you do that EXTRA SAFE maneuver you'd be thinking otherwise.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Y'all are just lucky that the rules say it's 'one hex' to do that fancy retreating dodge.

Have you ever actually played GURPS?

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Have you ever actually played GURPS?

Yes. But okay. Fine.

The taste test.

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.

Versus

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.


Which of these is the retreating dodge and which is the normal dodge?

You're in an open field, btw.
And in hex terms, you're in the center with room to spare.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Okay, now what's the difference between that and 'regular' fighting that has you dodging, blocking and parrying?

The fact that in a GURPS fight without Retreats (which really isn't "regular" fighting in most GURPS campaigns, but whatever), the fighters stay in roughly the same area, at most circling each other, and are at all times within Reach of each others' weapons. If you're going to insist that the only way something is a Retreat is if the character is humorously more-or-less running backward the whole time, or insist that it must always be exactly 1 yard, again, you are going to get silly results.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.

Versus

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.


Which of these is the retreating dodge and which is the normal dodge?

The one where you declare you're using a Retreat and move your token a hex back is the Retreating Dodge. That may be both, it may be neither.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

And in hex terms, you're in the center with room to spare.

Nope, you're nebulously somewhere in the rough area denoted by the hex, unless using a houserule that accounts for where in the hex a character is and has effects based on that.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Okay, now what's the difference between that and 'regular' fighting that has you dodging, blocking and parrying?

Do characters stand like rockem sockem robots during normal fight?
Or are we to envision this same back and forth dancing for normal fights too?

After all, they're in a big old yard hex with plenty of room to spare.
This is just normal fighting, noone in here retreats.

In boxing you don't have to yield the advance of Tyson, you can just stand there if he goes forward, in fact, isn't that what Buster Douglas did to him?
Catch him all the time in a clinch?

When Tyson and co dance around, then they're just doing normal boxing fighting. It's not a special feature of boxing. It's part of spacing which boxing is tied to, without it, you can't box. [...]

This is precisely the difference between GURPS and a lot of other roleplaying games.

In GURPS, the maneuvers and options you choose before rolling dice are a very important part of your character’s effectiveness.

If your character’s skill is very high but you content yourself with attacking and defending (normal attack maneuver), considering that the rest is just a mere description, while the GM uses good tactics against you, you will have a huge chance to lose the fight.

A mere Goblin with Shortsword 10 (1d cut/1d-1 imp) can be very dangerous if he can attack your character behind with an all-out telegraphic strong impaling blow. He will have 90.7% chance of succeeding, your character will have no chance of defending against him, and he will inflict 9 points of damage on average: (1d-1 + 2) x 2.

So, to play Mike Tyson, you don’t only have to choose a huge boxing skill, you also have to know GURPS combat rules well enough to use dodge, retreat and dodge, parry, committed attack, defensive attack, deceptive attack, etc., if you want to win the fight.

Otherwise, your Mike Tyson character will surely lose a lot of times ... And won’t anymore deserve his name. Unless the GM content himself to use the same sempiternal normal attack maneuver too.

It can be done, of course ... As it is written in the rules, “Some people like quick, fast-moving games, where the referee makes lots of decisions to keep things moving.” (Basic Set, Campaigns, page 5). And GURPS allows it as well as it allows more detail (“Others want ultimate detail, with rules for every contingency.”).

So, it is just a matter of choice, and your point (all that is just a description of ordinary dodges and attacks) is perfectly valid.

But as soon as you decided to use those detailed combat options, then, yes, saying that Mike Tyson sometimes dodges without stepping back while he sometimes does it, and that that difference of footwork can perfectly be simulated with dodge + retreat vs dodge without retreat also makes sense.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The one where you declare you're using a Retreat and move your token a hex back is the Retreating Dodge. That may be both, it may be neither.

That's pretty much it then. Unresolvable problem due to ambiguity (since without a hex mat, the step doesn't matter)

If taking a single step to dodge an incoming attack is a normal dodge (unless you let the weapon phase through you)

or
If taking a single step to dodge an incoming attack is a retreating and warrants a hex move (which without a mat doesn't even need to be a thing).

Then yes we will be arguing forever, well, not really forever since I'm admitting defeat :P

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Yes. But okay. Fine.

The taste test.

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.

Versus

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.


Which of these is the retreating dodge and which is the normal dodge?

You're in an open field, btw.
And in hex terms, you're in the center with room to spare.

You can't step back on normal dodge.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

The taste test.

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.

Versus

We are swordfighting, I do a vertical overhead swipe at you. You decide to dodge and take a step back.


Which of these is the retreating dodge and which is the normal dodge?

If you used detailed combat rules and want your character to win the fight, you’d better choose the dodge + retreat option. It gives you a bonus to your dodge and a free step back. While just stepping back after a normal dodge use your step part of your maneuver without giving you any bonus.

This is a game. Either you use the rules to win (to keep your character alive and accomplish the mission) or you don’t. Fighters in reality make all what they can to use what is more effective. They don’t try to dodge and then stepping back while stepping back for dodging is far much easier.

If you don’t believe me, just try this other taste test with a friend (and a weapon protected with foam).

Your friend does a vertical overhead swipe at you.

You try to dodge without stepping at all.

You try to dodge while stepping back.

What will be easier?

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Farmer

You can't step back on normal dodge.

How does one dodge a vertical attack then? mitosis?
Anyway, not getting baited any further.

Edit:
One more thing though:
If a regular dodge isn't stepping at all, especially not backwards.
Then I suppose regular fighting in GURPS is not cinematic at all, but clockwork figures rockem sockem roboting one another, doing at most a little body sway.

Losing completely to D&D in choreography where it's assumed that the fighters are doing all sorts of cool stuff in their squares.