Questions while reading rules more accurately...

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Lovewyrm, nobody aside from you has ever suggested that you can get a Retreat bonus while staying within your own hex

Ahahah...hahahah....
The opposite is the thing I!!!!!!!! argued since the beginning.
I never suggested this. I stated the opposite.


I would NEVER! Give you the retreat bonus for staying in your own hex, because I don't consider regular fighting step a retreat dodge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would NEVER! Give you the retreat bonus for staying in your own hex, because I don't consider regular fighting step a retreat dodge!!

But EVERYFREAKING ONE kept pushing the notion that fighters do retreat dodges all the time.
BUT FOR ME TO SEE IT AS A RETREAT DODGE I WOULD ARGUE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO MOVE A SIGNIFICANT DISTANCE!

And moving a SIGNIFICANT DISTANCE EVERY SECOND would look DUMB!

That's why I said I'd MOCK THE RETREAT DODGING THUG so he STAYS CLOSE! And fights like a man!

I said that noone would fight like that, then I was linked that one video with the...
Nevermind.

I'll post a video of my own now.

Time code related: 1:05
https://youtu.be/xTqzeMSBYFA?t=65

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Lovewyrm, nobody aside from you has ever suggested that you can get a Retreat bonus while staying within your own hex ...

Wait... what?

I thought folks are claiming there is a quote from Kromm or somesuch where people it says that you CAN move an inch, AND get the retreat bonus?

@Lovewyrm, I think you are making legitimate points, and I thank you for bringing this up. Just take a step back (maybe not a full retreat :) ), and breathe for a moment.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

<snip>

I think this is the time to bring up a variant of the MST3K mantra: "It's just a forum; I should really just relax." No reason pull your hair out over it.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Wait... what?

I thought folks are claiming there is a quote from Kromm or somesuch where people it says that you CAN move an inch, AND get the retreat bonus?

Here's the relevant bit:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Finally, note that retreating is merely an abstraction on a combat map. Reading it as "moving backward at X yards/second" leads to illogical outcomes. Hexes are discrete units while movement is continuous, and stepping into the next hex may well be a matter of shifting one's location by a few inches across the hex boundary, or even shifting one's center of mass that much while leaving one's leading foot planted. You still don't want your center of mass pushed through a wall or dropped off a cliff, but reading the record-keeping movement of a counter on a map as actual large-scale movement is dodgy at best.

So, yes, he says a Retreat could just be a matter of a few inches... but it still results in going into another hex. Again, nobody but Lovewyrm seems to have suggested you can get the Retreat bonus while staying within the same hex. It's a strawman. An accidental one, perhaps, but one nonetheless.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Farmer stated that you don't get a simple backstep to use as a dodge.
But a full on jump? Sure it's not three feet, but aimed at the shins it's still a pretyt good hop.

And that's okay? That is okay.
Anything to keep the retreat dodge bonus on a simple step. Anything to keep it as the precious bonus retreat dodge.


As for arguments. It's impossible for me to make arguments it seems, because you win every time.

"Stationary GURPS combat is not as dynamic as stationary D&D combat!"
Troll! Stationary GURPS combat is plenty dynamic you can jump, you can step a little, you can do all sorts of things.

"Stepping a little is not a retreating dodge, it's just spacing to maintain effective fighting range for a chosen weapon or style, I'm not giving you the bonus for it."
Troll! Stepping is retreating and I get the retreating bonus. Here's a video of swordfighters steping all over the place! They're retreating!

"Then what's not a retreating dodge, one that you would use in stationary combat?"
You'd just sway a little, maybe a little step.

"So stationary GURPS combat is not as dynamic as D&D combat?"
Troll! You can totally move around, you can steps and even jump while staying in your hex, it's big for a reason.

"So if you step around in your big for a reason hex, it's not a retreat dodge"
Troll! it is a retreat dodge and I want my bonus! You're mincing words!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

OK. I best see the problem now. At least, I hope so ...

What is the difference between a dodge with retreat and a dodge without retreat?

Simple. If you dodge and retreat, you are enforced to make a step forward to attack after that, while if you dodge without retreating, you are not.

Which in reality does correspond to: if you make an effort to really get out of the reach of your opponent while dodging, which will make your dodge easier, you will have to make the same effort to get in your reach before attacking (unless your opponent follows you or you have a longer weapon).

And what about the distance covered? We do not really care. An inch, a foot, a yard … The important points are that you get out of the reach of the attack, that you dodge during your turn (which lasts about one second) and that you will attack again during your next turn (which also lasts about one second). So you won’t go too far. Now, if you are using hexe maps, it is more convenient to say that you go in one of the three hexes backward (chose which one).

The trick to understand is that, in GURPS rules, the effort to get out of reach is free (maybe because the fear of being hurt, with adrenaline, helps a lot - or put any other logical reason here) while the effort to come back in reach is not: it costs you one step (or one movement point).

Did I understand things well? Don't hesitate to say no: this is the main purpose of this thread. Did it help anyone else? It would make me happy.

[Lovewyrm]

Okay.
Calm now.

I will now retell the events, please excuse the lack of cross references and links, I never enjoyed futzing with such stuff:
Gollum started this thread to get some clarifications on the whole retreating dodge situation, citing a Karateka and a Thug.

The Thug being a dodgy fellow, who keeps on retreating.

The thread at first covered the 'limits of retreating' by virtue of backing into obstacles, that's why the Krommpost was cited.

Being a ROLEPLAYER, wanting some versimili...believability:
I chimed in that I would mock a constantly retreating thug.
And that if the back and forth would go on and stay fruitless, I would rather stop and evaluate the thug, even citing the reasoning that a fighter suddenly stopping, still defending but seriously sizing you up, hatching a plan, might have a psychological effect in a reallife fight.

With the intent that the thug, who should be roleplayed in a more sensible, and less monkey springbean type manner should commit to either running away, or fighting.

Varyon stated that it would be more effective to attack rather than evaluate (and later on it was reinforced that evals should be used befor a fight)

Anyway, back to believability, I said that noone fights like the RETREAT dodge fighting Thug, not even in amped up media.

I was linked a video about swordfight sparring, where you could see two fighters step all over the place, doing their little combat dances.
This was posted to show me that people DO retreat.

However, I called this 'built in, intrinsic spacing required for swordfighting' and that both fighters were committed to the fight, noone retreated.
The footsies and co are just part of the fight to maintain spacing.

Like how in Boxing, if you get too close, you enter a clinch and you'll want the ref to split you up because doing it on your own leaves you open.

I tried strenghtening my argument that the video about the swordsmen is just standard fighting, and that the steps were regular dodges, and, transferred to GURPS, I would consider this a 'static fight' that remains in its own hex.

In other words, flavor. Cinematic fighting. No special effects. Just attack, dodge, parry.

But this was challenged with the Krommpost (since even an inch could be considered a bonus giving dodge) as well as Farmer saying that you can't even take a single backstep as a regular dodge.

With me so far? I consider lively stepping around, simply cinematographic fighting as long as both are committed, noone is doing a retreat dodge even if they step around the place, that's why the hex is so big, and that's why a square in D&D is big also.

In order for it to be a retreat, I would want the step backwards to be 'extra' spacey, not normal spacey. Spacey enough that if your battlepartner didn't follow up, then you'd have to move back into effecting fighting range for your weapon yourself! (because you previously retreated)

And THAT!
Is a fighting style I do not find natural, but instead monkey like. And I argue that noone fights like that EVERY TURN.

But, since that would cut down received bonuses for retreat dodges, I was being opposed in that.
I really don't know how to put it otherwise.

Again:
Regular footwork is just 'cinematographic fighting inside your hex'
To do a RETREAT dodge, you'd have to actually move out of effective weapon range. Far enough to need to get back into it.


But y'all wanted it to be a retreat dodge anyway because 'even an inch' counts, in the simplified, non battlemap combat.

I care about believability, not the mechanics. Isn't that the GURPS way?
Think of a character first and then model it with the bits and bobs the system offers?

Same with fighting here, if we remain in pretty close combat where we both can easily use our weapons, then we're not retreating, even if we tumble all over the hex.
Only significant distances should be a RETREATING dodge.
And who fights like that?
Not many -_- ... T_T. Sniff.

And IF someone did that, then doing something like 'evaluates' should be fine, too.
Imagine someone bouncing back and forth. Wouldn't you try to break that pattern? Looking for an opening?
It's such a classic thing... even in fantasy martial media.

Fist of the North star: Kenshiro, the practitioner of the assassin fist of the north star is being encircled by a dude who has a phantom trail spinning move, blurring together.

How does Kenshiro get out of this? He concentrates, tries to feel the real movement of the enemy.
He doesn't wildly kick around. Stuff like that T_T.

And to reiterate:
If the lively stepping flavorful fighting style IS NOT stationary, but special RETREATING (that gives bonuses) ...then, by extension ,a stationary fight can't have stepping or much movement.

And if STANDARD stationary fighting is THAT stiff, then...you can't call it very cinematey, now, can you? But in D&D, that kind of lively stuff IS! stationary, we-are-not-leaving-our-square fighting.

So yeah, not trolling...simply pointing out the result of grasping for the dodge bonus with such an iron fist as many of my opponents did.
Sapping liveliness out of standard fights.

Am I more clear this way? I think I'm legit a bit autistic so sometimes I have troubles with that. But I'm not trolling.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

I care about believability, not the mechanics. Isn't that the GURPS way?
Think of a character first and then model it with the bits and bobs the system offers?

In my humble opinion, GURPS cares about both: believability and mechanics. It is a game who always wanted to please narrativist, ludist as well as simulationist players.

Ludists want to win. They have rule to optimize their characters and a lot of strategic options to optimize their combats. Simulationists (like me) want to feel what they feel in the dojo, being free to attempt what they can attempt during a kumite, try different techniques and that it all makes sense: GURPS offers a lot of rules which allow that while being quite consistent with reality. Narrativist want to focus on the story and play the role of their character first. They want rules which encourage roleplaying rather than limiting it. GURPS also give them what they like most.

My first example was not at all narritivist. I chose a karateka and a thug, because I can speak about the realism stuff of that situation. I am roughly a karateka with a skill of 14, which would give me a little edge over an unexperimented thug, but no more than a little edge. I know my limits.

To follow you in the narrativist manner of playing, I wouldn’t mock the thug. I would use the wait maneuver to hit him just when he tries to attack me back or another combat option to attack while defending at the same time (we name that “ayuchi”). And if he wanted to flee away, I would let him go. The only combats which are won are those that you avoided (because true combats hurt a lot, most often both adversaries - especially when there is no rule and no referee to prevent things to become very nasty).

Someone who really wanted to fight the thug (I, if he stole something important or clearly wanted to harm someone) will probably attack and step forward every time he goes backward, forcing him to use retreating dodge until he is corned somewhere (like Mike Tyson almost always sounds to do).

Your solution and those other ones are all realistic and can easily be played with GURPS as soon as the players use the good options to simulate them. And dodge plus retreat is an important option for some of them. Because it is not really unrealistic. As soon as everything is played in a realistic way around, of course.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

How does one dodge a vertical attack then?

Downward swings with weapons probably ought out to operate similar to an axe kick (MA67) where there's a secondary target of a lower body part.

Originally Posted by Gollum

You will notice a lot of dodges with stepping backward, without stepping backward (ducking for instance), slipping to the side, the front (Mike Tyson often did that)

I think a lot of this depends on the type of attack too, like you can duck a sword thrust to the face a lot more easily than you can duck a staff swing to the skull.

Whereas conversely, stepping backward probably shouldn't help as much against a thrusting attack if your attacker is doing a running charge since they'd probably keep running and hit you anyway (a sideslip OTOH should help)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Varyon stated that it would be more effective to attack rather than evaluate (and later on it was reinforced that evals should be used befor a fight)

Yeah, this is a bit of an issue with the GURPS system, that Evaluate is very rarely worth it. There are some optional rules that make it a bit better in high-skill fights, like it applying against Feint attempts and giving a bonus against Deceptive Attacks, but in general you're better off attack-attack-attacking. "The Last Gasp" (which also makes attack-attack-attack result in the character rapidly getting worn out) probably has the best option for Evaluate, where it serves as a Recovery Action (and thus part of the lulls that naturally occur when using that system), but in baseline GURPS? It's just not worth it.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

In order for it to be a retreat, I would want the step backwards to be 'extra' spacey, not normal spacey. Spacey enough that if your battlepartner didn't follow up, then you'd have to move back into effecting fighting range for your weapon yourself! (because you previously retreated)

I mean, we see that in the swordfighting video - in the exchange in the clip at the very beginning of the video, we see each combatant moving out of his opponent's reach, and either the opponent following or the defender then needing to step back into combat. You also see them moving quite a good deal around the battle area, far more than what could be treated as each just moving within their own hex.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Only significant distances should be a RETREATING dodge.

I think this may be the crux of the issue, here. While I would also say that the movement needs to be significant, I'd be using a different definition of significant. Oxford Languages (where the definitions you see from Google come from) defines significant as "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy." Your interpretation of it looks to be focusing on the "great" part - that is, the distance needs to be large - a full yard. I'm looking more at the "sufficiently" bit of it - retreating only a few inches is significant if it takes you outside of your opponent's reach.

A potential corollary that you appear to be arguing against (but nobody is arguing for) is that the idea Retreating only a few inches can be sufficient would mean you should be able to "Retreat" (that is, get the +1/+3) while staying in your own hex. But Retreating involves, by its very nature, giving up ground. That's ground you can potentially make back up (provided your opponent doesn't move forward to occupy it, forcing you back), but it's ground given up nonetheless. Because GURPS combat can't really handle simply giving up a few inches (what would that even look like, mechanically?), the easiest way to account for Retreats is to require the character to move to a different hex.

Of course, as I said in my very first response in the thread, there's certainly room for a houserule that makes Retreat use up your Step for the round, which would give you the result you want - the thug is unable to attack if he Retreats, because that eats up his Step and he's stuck where he's at. In that case, taunting him might work... but then so might just continuing to Step forward and punching, as eventually you'll land a hit.

Originally Posted by Gollum

I would use the wait maneuver to hit him just when he tries to attack me back or another combat option to attack while defending at the same time (we name that “ayuchi”).

I'll note this is actually an option in GURPS Martial Arts, called Stop Hit - Wait until they attack and attack at the same time; there's a quick contest of skill (which a skill 14 karateka should typically win against a DX 10 thug working off his DX default), and the loser takes a defense penalty (a tie means both combatants take a defense penalty).

[thom]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I suppose if you did do two second turns you could expand all-out-attack for options like Ready and Attack and so on.

I've found your advice & comments very insightful/helpful over the years since I joined these forums. Can you expound more on what you mean by this?

I should also point out that when I stand in my living room and go "through the motions" of: fast-drawing a sword from my hip; moving a Step forward; and conducting a Rapid Strike against two foes, I'm much more comfortable with that taking two seconds than just one second...

thom

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'll note this is actually an option in GURPS Martial Arts, called Stop Hit - Wait until they attack and attack at the same time; there's a quick contest of skill (which a skill 14 karateka should typically win against a DX 10 thug working off his DX default), and the loser takes a defense penalty (a tie means both combatants take a defense penalty).

Yes, this is the best way to simulate it (I read again the Stop Hit rules to realize it). Thank you very much for that hint.