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Old 09-19-2023, 12:22 PM   #1
Aman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Default Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

In Melee, under "Forcing Retreat" it seems to indicate that you force someone to retreat if you Hit them and don't get Hit in return.

"Hit" seems to indicate "taking damage" not just being Hit [which may result in no damage due to a lousy damage roll or armor, etc], because of this parenthetical statement "...hits taken by the enemy's armor don't count".

My Legacy "In the Labyrinth" book removes that explanatory phrase, and seems to indicate that any Hit [and not being Hit, regardless of damage] allows you to force someone back.

So I'm presently inclined to play "Melee" with you need to do damage to Force a Retreat, and change it later should I use ITL.

But I'm open to the opinion of others better informed!
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Old 09-19-2023, 01:24 PM   #2
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

The actual quote from ITL Legacy is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 118
A figure that put hits on an enemy figure by any physical,
non-missile attack, and is not hit itself that turn, may force
the enemy to retreat one hex at the end of the turn.
I think "put hits" means "wounds" here, so if you don't penetrate the armor, you didn't put hits on the enemy figure.

There is a difference between "put hits" and "hits" in the way I read it. If you make your to-hit roll, then you hit the enemy, but you don't put hits on him unless he actually takes wounds as a result.
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Old 09-19-2023, 01:48 PM   #3
Aman
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The actual quote from ITL Legacy is this:


I think "put hits" means "wounds" here, so if you don't penetrate the armor, you didn't put hits on the enemy figure.

There is a difference between "put hits" and "hits" in the way I read it. If you make your to-hit roll, then you hit the enemy, but you don't put hits on him unless he actually takes wounds as a result.
I think that's it, per Melee.
I wonder if they changed it for Legacy ITL.
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Old 09-19-2023, 02:25 PM   #4
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
There is a difference between "put hits" and "hits" in the way I read it. If you make your to-hit roll, then you hit the enemy, but you don't put hits on him unless he actually takes wounds as a result.
In the essay "Retreats Revamped" in Hexagram #4, by Steve Jackson says this in an example, "I have just put a hit on you, and I was unhurt during the turn." This specifically mentions being unhurt as a condition necessary to force a retreat, so we can confidently interpret "put hits" and "inflicted hits" to mean "wound".
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Old 09-19-2023, 05:42 PM   #5
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

I concur with phiwum's and Shostak's assessment.

You must wound your opponent and take no damage that same turn for the Forced Retreat option to be available.

As a GM, I've forgotten to remind when this option is available. I thank the OP for discussing it.
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Old 09-21-2023, 11:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The actual quote from ITL Legacy is this:

Originally Posted by ITL 118
A figure that put hits on an enemy figure by any physical,
non-missile attack, and is not hit itself that turn, may force
the enemy to retreat one hex at the end of the turn.


I think "put hits" means "wounds" here, so if you don't penetrate the armor, you didn't put hits on the enemy figure.

There is a difference between "put hits" and "hits" in the way I read it. If you make your to-hit roll, then you hit the enemy, but you don't put hits on him unless he actually takes wounds as a result.
I assume this means ANY DAMAGE to the one forcing a retreat:
Original Attacker Joe makes contact with his Mace on victim Sam and hurts Sam. Then Sam attacks Joe and bangs against Joe's armor and does not penetrate. (Sam is now Forced Retreat bait.). But wait, Edgar takes a shot at Joe and pierces his armor and damages Joe. Joe has received damage this turn, even though it was not from Sam. Does this mean that Joe cannot Force Retreat Sam?
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Old 09-22-2023, 01:26 AM   #7
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
I assume this means ANY DAMAGE to the one forcing a retreat:
Original Attacker Joe makes contact with his Mace on victim Sam and hurts Sam. Then Sam attacks Joe and bangs against Joe's armor and does not penetrate. (Sam is now Forced Retreat bait.). But wait, Edgar takes a shot at Joe and pierces his armor and damages Joe. Joe has received damage this turn, even though it was not from Sam. Does this mean that Joe cannot Force Retreat Sam?
Nice catch there! That's important.
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Old 09-22-2023, 05:48 AM   #8
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
I assume this means ANY DAMAGE to the one forcing a retreat:
Original Attacker Joe makes contact with his Mace on victim Sam and hurts Sam. Then Sam attacks Joe and bangs against Joe's armor and does not penetrate. (Sam is now Forced Retreat bait.). But wait, Edgar takes a shot at Joe and pierces his armor and damages Joe. Joe has received damage this turn, even though it was not from Sam. Does this mean that Joe cannot Force Retreat Sam?
Yes, that is correct. The person forcing the retreat cannot have been wounded that turn.
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Old 09-22-2023, 07:44 AM   #9
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
I assume this means ANY DAMAGE to the one forcing a retreat:
Original Attacker Joe makes contact with his Mace on victim Sam and hurts Sam. Then Sam attacks Joe and bangs against Joe's armor and does not penetrate. (Sam is now Forced Retreat bait.). But wait, Edgar takes a shot at Joe and pierces his armor and damages Joe. Joe has received damage this turn, even though it was not from Sam. Does this mean that Joe cannot Force Retreat Sam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Yes, that is correct. The person forcing the retreat cannot have been wounded that turn.
I concur with this additional scenario.
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Old 09-22-2023, 09:51 AM   #10
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
I concur with this additional scenario.
And I concur with this concur. ;-) Seriously.
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