Time for my 360 Review

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by dwalend

That said, SJGames is reaching the bottom of the well of old material. It's time to start pondering new things, to grow the game.

I'm going to start a new thread on this, because I also have some ideas and I don't want to clutter up this thread.

[Bowser]

Drew,

I agree with several folks above when I say that communication is a strong point. You do a good job of keeping all the loose ends tied down and bringing up points that need addressing after everyone else has forgotten about them.

Also, if the Playmat M1 model is going to be followed in the future (that is, a very limited pre-order window), then communications will be a MUST or else people that miss the boat will become disenchanted.

I'm not fully aware of what your day-to-day or week-to-week job responsibilities are at SJG, but if you are heavily into the creative side, then I'd like to see more of (in no particular order):

a) More Ogre history all across the timeline, especially where such "fluff" can spark scenario development. (Sometimes it takes a jump start to get us going.)

b) More info on the Factory States era, although Nightfall might cover this more fully. I've always wondered if/when the Ogre factories themselves might become self-aware and how that would play out. Factory vs. factory with humanity caught in the middle? Can a human force strike back? Should a human force strike back? Would a second human force help protect a Factory in order for the Factory to help them to survive? Etc. You get the idea.

c) I'd like to see a specific scenario based on the rules from Daniel Oney's article in Ogrezine and based on a real city. I assume that this first(?) volume of Ogrezine will be available indefinitely at Warehouse 23 so everyone interested can get those rules. While I would like to see a physical product (i.e. MAPS), this would probably be way too large for a Playmat so consider using TomC's excellent Ogremap and make us a pdf file to use for this scenario -- one that can be resized before printing so that people can either use the "modern" OgreDE scale or the smaller classic size hexes. People seemed to like the Car Wars stuff located in real (but future) places, so why not Ogre? This could be a great side line of projects assuming you could to it cheaply enough.

d) As you get into the real world more and more (terrain wise), you may have to develop additional terrain types. I know that you've played around with this before but something official may have to be released. I'll say no more on that here or I'll never finish this.

e) Solo or solitare play. If I knew how to go about doing this, I'd send in a product proposal to SJGs! I don't, so I'll just leave this here. As they get more of the bugs worked out of the computer game of Ogre, this will perhaps become more common there.

f) Or perhaps use the "solo play" idea and do a scenario where the two players are grossly mis-matched. A veteran player vs. a noob. Perhaps the noob's defense is grouped in companies where there are some "canned" responses available to him: if this happens, then do that. If the veteran is playing honestly, this could not only fun for the noob, but a great teaching tool as well.

You may notice that all of my suggestions avoid talking about new players, convention events, local game store events, player networking in larger cities, etc. This is because while important, none of these things have much to do with me. I live in a rural area in a mostly rural state. (Look up Genoa, Nebraska and see what I mean.) I'm not complaining, I live here by choice and think the advantages vastly outweigh the disadvantages, but there are downsides.

So things that add value to the game especially when other players are absent or very distant work for me.

I've tried to keep most of these suggestions to a non-physical level. Things seem to "happen" when you are involved, so I'll toss these in your general direction and let you run with them.

You really are doing a fantastic job and I think the current level of vitality of the Ogre line has a lot to do with you. We all thank you.

Bowser

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by wolf90

How am I doing?

Will the real Drew please stand up...You must have clones working in tandem with you because the volume of OGRE material you shepherd on a ongoing basis is staggering and well handled. All those links you post to OGRE related things are very much appreciated.

Originally Posted by wolf90

More to the point, are there things that I could do better?

None come to mind.

Originally Posted by wolf90

Am I focusing too much on one thing and not enough on another?

No. You are doing a fine job balancing too much and not enough.

Originally Posted by wolf90

How is my level of communication - here, on BGG, during Kickstarters?

Excellent. Drew, you're doing an awesome job keeping us involved and up to date with all things OGRE and it is very much appreciated.

Originally Posted by wolf90

Are there things you want to see more of?

The Ogre News Archives is a great outlet to keep us informed on all things OGRE and is being used at optimum performance.

I would like to see a yearly OGREzine.

Originally Posted by wolf90

Less of?

Cross pollination adverts for non-OGRE games in any proximity to OGRE games.
I cringe every time I see the CAR WARS adverts (2 no less) on my 6th Edition OGRE. Nothing against CWs.

Originally Posted by wolf90

Are we/am I hitting it square on the head?

Yes. Usually...enter OGRE on STEAM. The most profound and IP expanding thing that could have happened to OGRE quickly became a shining example of how not to launch a video game. Nothing kills enthusiasm for a game or repulses potential new players more than a buggy, flawed and incomplete video game at launch which never had any clearly defined and stated official definition of what the finished game will be. It still does not! They have been working much better on things...but the list is a long one and you only get one chance to rally a fanbase at launch.

Please compile an official statement about what the final version of OGRE on STEAM will be and let us know when it becomes official. The Scenario Creator in that flawed and buggy game is the best thing to happen to OGRE since it's inception...I suggest it be fully implemented and used to the fullest extent possible. They just added the ability to print out maps from custom scenarios...hmm...I wonder if such maps could also be printed on the same official Playmat Maps? See where this can go??? What else can that Scenario Creator do that we have not realized yet???

Originally Posted by wolf90

Rather, this is my attempt at getting feedback on how I specifically, and SJGames by extension, are either meeting, or failing to meet, your goals for the game.

So . . . what do you think?

D.

See above...and Thank You Drew and SJGs for keeping those tread units rolling!

[Dave Crowell]

Communication is excellent. Having backed all teh Ogre Kickstarters and subscribing to the Ogre newsletter, as well as FB I sometimes get the same news multiple times, but that is better than missing it.

My biggest hope for the future of the Ogre line is that will retain the elegance of the classic design. Car Wars reached a point of almost too many new gadgets, etc. I don't want to see Ogre presenting us with 15 different sorts of tanks for instance.

Objective 218 was the sort of product I would like to see more of. New sorts of gameplay in the Ogre universe.

I would enjoy more Ogrezine. An annual format would good.

[Izzy_B]

Communication is good, that there’s this web board and twitter and maybe other places and that y’all respond is great.

Driving non Kickstarter messages they Kickstarter less than great. Feels confusing. Maybe that is in part something to coordinate between you and Phil?

Part of the difficulty in writing a response here is I dont know your JD. “Line Editor” could simply mean responsible for the text and some public relations or it could mean more.

Just how much say do you have in SJG company strategy going forward with Ogre? Are you involved in decisions about what product is digital only vs physical? Real world promotional activity at LGS & cons?

As for the game going forward, as GranitePenguin points out there’s an open question around future product. I don’t worry so much for myself but for prospective players. SJG has its core of older fans who buy all the re-issue stuff and hopefully thanks to 6e being in retail some new fans as well.

I just gifted a 6e & Reinforcement Pack for my little cousin who is going into 9th grade. If he gets into it and wants more there’s nothing else retail for his saved up money. There’s two or three LGS in his state and one happens to be close to where he lives and theres always online stores, it would be great if he could get new stuff.

I respect that doing a print run of Ogrezine is expensive but it is exactly the kind of product that shows off the flexibility of the franchise. Its the kind of thing that some people might buy at their LGS or bookstore to learn if they want to get into the game.

This isnt about “what I want” its about hoping that SJG can ensure this product has legs in various sales channels beyond Kickstarter and W23.

[totalfailure]

Originally Posted by Izzy_B

I just gifted a 6e & Reinforcement Pack for my little cousin who is going into 9th grade. If he gets into it and wants more there’s nothing else retail for his saved up money. There’s two or three LGS in his state and one happens to be close to where he lives and theres always online stores, it would be great if he could get new stuff.

I respect that doing a print run of Ogrezine is expensive but it is exactly the kind of product that shows off the flexibility of the franchise. Its the kind of thing that some people might buy at their LGS or bookstore to learn if they want to get into the game.

This isnt about “what I want” its about hoping that SJG can ensure this product has legs in various sales channels beyond Kickstarter and W23.

Unfortunately, it has become increasingly clear that no matter how much we love it, in the current gaming environment, Ogre just does not have 'legs'. I assume you read the 2017 Stakeholders report - Phil Reed made it pretty clear that sales performance was very weak through normal distribution channels, ie game stores. And given the state of the company and industry, Ogre was going to have rely on crowdfunding.

Out of all the SJG products out there, the 6E Ogre box only managed to place 20th. Despite its quality, Ogre Reinforcements did not even make the top 40! I don't think it is fair to ask that they throw more dollars at retail releases when it has been demonstrated it just doesn't sell there.

Support for Ogre seems to have plateaued at around 1000 backers for Kickstarter projects. Over 5000 supported Designer's Edition. Where did those other 4000+ people go? Was DE too successful, in that it satisfied too many people's desire for Ogre completely?

Short of getting out and playing the game in public, and talking it up online, I don't think there is much else any of us can do to grow the game. I freely admit I haven't done as much as I would like, but I am having a hard time getting any gaming at all in the vast wasteland that is upstate NY.

Sorry to hijack Drew's thread. I think you're doing a good job communicating overall. The news about Ogre has been out there - but we can't make people read it. It is hard to accept when the product you cherish is not embraced by the gaming mainstream. But it is a reality at this point, and the best question is what can we do going forward, accepting that at the moment, Ogre is a 'niche' product at best.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by totalfailure

Support for Ogre seems to have plateaued at around 1000 backers for Kickstarter projects. Over 5000 supported Designer's Edition. Where did those other 4000+ people go? Was DE too successful, in that it satisfied too many people's desire for Ogre completely?

Short of getting out and playing the game in public, and talking it up online, I don't think there is much else any of us can do to grow the game.

The other 4000 are happy with what they got. The 5000 will show up again for Battlefields because that's the remainder of the "classic stuff" that isn't available yet (i.e., EVERYONE that bought ODE will want G3 and S3). On the flip side, almost NOBODY NEW is going to get involved in the Battlefields KS because they don't have a reason to buy that and also buy 6E so they can actually play it (Battlefields is NOT a standalone product). Beyond that, almost nobody that bought ODE bought 6E and Reinforcements; why would they? The only reason would be to give to someone that doesn't have any Ogre at all (which I've done), or to get an extra map.

This reminds me of another lost opportunity worth talking about in the context of what could have been better. The 40th anniversary Organized Play events were basically a flop. We had a strong start in Feb, but didn't have another event after that to build upon; it was anything but organized. Without a solid standing event to show new people, there's no reason for them to pick 6E up and keep things going. You can't demo ODE because people can't buy it (which is where all the cool stuff is), I mostly just end up showing the Mark III attacking all the time because it's pretty much all that's currently available for people to buy.

In short, the marketing of Ogre hasn't been there.

[totalfailure]

I think that is a very optimistic assessment of the potential of the Battlefields Kickstarter.

[Desert Scribe]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

The 40th anniversary Organized Play events were basically a flop. We had a strong start in Feb, but didn't have another event after that to build upon; it was anything but organized.

I was going to mention this as well. I don't recall much advance notice of the Play Ogre event; it was mentioned in the Daily Illuminator on Feb. 1, and the date of the event was Feb. 11. I ended up missing out because I already had plans that weekend. Was there any coverage of the event, any sort of followup? Why wasn't there another one?

Also, what about game conventions? I understand resources are limited, but there used to be Ogre tournaments at various conventions. Are they still going on?

Also, one minor nitpick: On your Ogre News emails, please put the number at the top, not the bottom, so readers can quickly tell if the dispatch is one they have already seen.

[TheAmishStig]

You'll have to forgive me for being late to the party...been dwelling on it since before GP's first post.

Communication-wise, accessibility-wise...you're killing it, dude. Suffice to say it's my humble opinion that Ogre is doing as well as it is specifically because of your enthusiasm, persistence, and willingness to engage with us.

Ultimately I wish the market wasn't in the state it's in. 6E breaking into SJG's top 20 is no small feat, not when Munchkin is the juggernaut it is, with the broad catalog Munchkin has, and in a market where the shelf life of printings of games can be measured in hours. 6E might not be everywhere like Catan is...but performing well enough to hit the company's top 20, in the market it did, against an established juggernaut, is no-bones-about-it a success. Congratulations to you, Steve, Phil, and the entire SJG crew.

From the outside looking it, it seems Reinforcements was a commercial disappointment...I think it suffered because of positioning. It felt too geared towards people who know what the big picture is, and I'm afraid that turned off the people who don't, making retail shelves in this market a double whammy. In hindsight, it probably should have had the green maps at least on poster paper...even just G1/S1. I think that would've made a difference, as I've had more than one person seem like they didn't really get the point of Reinforcements...specifically because they didn't have the context to know what "Battlefields is coming, and that will have green maps" means for the game and for what they'll be able to do with it afterwards.

The bright side is, depending on how Battlefields goes [and what it costs, given that M1 is $25 and Phil mentioned it being cheaper than hardboard...let alone two hardboard maps...], you should see an uptick in adoption with a solid cross-sale, giving people "out of the loop" the context they were missing when Reinforcements launched.

Could possibly even do a couple KS tiers geared towards "new to the game" players...6E + Battlefields ("New Recruit"), Reinforcements + Battlefields ("Welcome back, Commander"), and 6E + Reinforcements + Battlefields ("The Full Package")...or to save on shipping logistics, have just three tiers: "International" [$1, single-use coupon good for $1 off Battlefields on W23], "Battlefields" [Battlefields], and "I need some of the old stuff" [Battlefields + a single-use coupon good for $X (or X%) off 6E / Reinforcements / both on W23]. Could also do a sale during the campaign, but a coupon allows people to not have to choose between one or the other if money's tight...they could get Battlefields "this month" and 6E / Reinforcements "next month" rather than having to spend both at once.

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On the minis side...I've over-committed so hard it's not funny, but am determined to see it through. You make a Set 3 (or a Set 4, or a Set 5, or...) and offer me "Too many minis", I'll buy "Too many minis". The dream of setting up a "Setpiece of the convention" event, asking a player what their favorite color is, and being able to say 'I've got just the thing...' is still on.

I'm really hoping that we as a community can get Minis out there, and that the company can afford to keep it available long enough to hit critical mass...as the number of people I've met over the years who look at something like Battletech or Warhammer and go "That's neat, but it's way too complicated" would be a perfect market for Ogre Minis (and to some degree, GEV, depending on willingness to play on a grid). But to do that, it's gonna take a couple years' worth of conventions to plant those seeds, in a market most suited to paraphrasing Weird Al's All About the Pentiums: "You say you've had your board game for over a week? Throw that junk away man, it's an antique!"

Set 2 I've seen a good deal of rumbling about not selling just Set 2 (and/or multiples of just set 2)...people who already have Set 1s feeling burned by being stuck buying more Set 1s if they want more Set 2s. I understand SJG's logic on it, but it's a PR headache that I'm not sure how to smooth over.

Kickstarter shipping seems to be the biggest PR problem right now, and it's not something I envy you guys on. Either people get angry that they have to jump through extra hoops if they're not in the US (as one of the big draws of a KS campaign is the community that springs up around a project...the discussions, the updates, etc), or they get furious that shipping fees don't reflect actual shipping costs, or SJG fakes it and loses its shirt to the point Ogre kickstarters cease to be financially viable.

There's gotta be some answer, but I don't know what it is. For the size of the project, Backerkit and their ilk is untenable. Keith is likely too busy to be writing something like Reaper does with their in-house Pledge Manager (not to mention that such a thing is a lot easier to budget for when they're doing several million in pledges every year or two)...so I don't know what a good solution would be. But there has to be one.

Minis 2nd edition [the book] looks fantastic...I read the PDF cover to cover the night it delivered. From the perspective of someone who played Battletech for years, doesn't have a copy of 1st Edition, and had always been curious about "proper" wargames but too intimidated by the same [the complexity, the cost, "super serious" player base, etc]...I am absolutely floored that you guys managed to turn Ogre into a full-bodied wargame in just 45 pages, most of which were spent on "We cannot assume someone is coming from Ogre, this has to be a stand-alone rule set".

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As GranitePenguin noted, as I touched on when talking about Battlefields, and as you echoed...I do not envy you guys right now, because striking the right balance with any given 'expansion pack' is a mess of mutually-exclusive desires.

Ogre needs the support of the old hats to remain financially viable right here right now, and the old hats don't need an umpteenth copy of any given product they've been buying since the 70s. At the same time, Ogre needs the support of new blood to keep it in print for the foreseeable future, lest we get another dry spell like the one that preceded ODE...and new blood need products that are a different approach than what works for the old hats, tackled from the perspective of "Assume I know nothing about Ogre beyond what's in the 6th Edition box, excite me enough to buy this new thing" whereas someone more familiar with the big picture can think "Ok, I can do this little bit of stuff now, but this set is really going to come into its own once they re-release X, Y, and Z, so it's worth picking up..."

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I know all that sounds overly negative, and might suggest that I'm sitting here as a seething ball of disappointment...nothing could be further form the truth. I'm ecstatic...glossing over what's good to focus on what can be better is how I'm wired at a moment like this. It doesn't mean I don't see what's good, it doesn't mean I'm not thrilled for what's good, it doesn't mean I'm not enthusiastic on the whole...it means I'm doing what was asked of me, looking for things to improve.

So let me close on a high note. You're doing an amazing job, and it's a job I hope Steve and Phil insist on you keeping for years and years to come.
There are some who are suggesting this is a "golden age" for Ogre...and I'm prone to agree.

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PS:
Please please please...even if it's not truly 'organized', if the 'Organized Play' rules for keeping 'score' over a 'season' are floating around...please get them to us. [and thanks to Desert Scribe for the reminder] If this little group I've been trying to cultivate ends up being a long-term thing, I'll absolutely put them to use somehow.