01-26-2022, 02:27 AM | #101 |
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
Well, fair enough. You won't address the issue with the GM (and that is the actual problem) and you're happy to quote all the special things that melee can do without naming any of the archery options.
I've played and GMed archers (including currently) archers or various levels and types. They're entirely viable and lots of fun. /shrug
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01-26-2022, 02:31 AM | #102 | |
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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If every opponent can fly, melee attacks will seem worthless; if every opponent can teleport, ranged attacks will seem pointless; if most opponents move like normal humans, the two are usually fairly balanced.
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01-26-2022, 03:22 AM | #103 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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In the end, though, I think a proper appreciation of archers comes down to "Don't bring a bow to a sword fight." It goes both ways. Set up a full-on bow fight - facing foes across a chasm, looking down at foes from atop the castle wall, etc. - and the archers will do all the killing while the useless melee fighters might as well play chess or take naps. (And on that matter of bringing the right weapons to the right fight, a note to GMs: Don't place an archer in what looks like a nice long-range bow fight, and then suddenly warp the map into a sword fight!)
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01-26-2022, 03:39 AM | #104 | |
Join Date: Apr 2019
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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You started out with a setting where you were 2 TLs behind the people you were attacking. They were fortified and you were under equipped (albeit with the 'best' bow you could get your hands on). GURPS Archery isn't the problem in this scenario, its either your expectations or the GMs vision that are the issue. Sure Archery isnt fun when the realism dial is turned all the way up, but its not really about that is it? I'm am a critic of the range rules in general {0-19yds specifically}, but in modern settings they really do play out fairly realistic past 20yds. Fact is I have a simple house rule that covers this, and its just about my only issue with the mechanics of GURPS so its still superior to anything I could make myself and anything I have encountered. It turns the dial a little towards the cinematic for ranged vs. melee in my Med-Fan games but it makes the player and the GM happy :) Issues with the GURPS Archery mechanics aside.... Why would your PCs even try this? I mean I get hiding in the bushes and plinking arrows at them from a distance, trying to get them to chase you INTO THE WOODS where you have better options against their tactics. I don't get why a TL1 group would mass rush a TL3 group in open combat. I don't get why the TL3 group would leave their walls to come out and engage you. (this sort of smells like a Romans vs. 'Celts' type situation and we know that those did not usually go well for the Celts {and yes I know Celts isn't an ideal definition but its enough for this}) These kind of encounters were won, if at all, with numbers, surprise and luck. Most of the time they were routed with significant loss of life and resources. Your Archery doesn't seem ideal, because it isn't ideal for this scenario. As I said before you seem caught between a desire to be a 'cinematic Archer' and actually having built a fairly skill bow shooter. Leaving the family/GM stuff aside I still think your expectations are unreasonable given the setting and the opponent. If you knew in advance what your char might get into then you get to learn from this poor choice. If you didn't know, well.... we don't get to choose our skill sets based on future knowledge so that's not unrealistic either, embrace the RP opportunity. And sometimes you have to play to the GMs style. If you know he likes in your face melee encounters then dont be upset when making a diametrically opposed character doesnt get treated the same way. Maybe just stop playing when your Brother GMs if its just a family thing. I tell my kids that all the time, you have a choice whether you enable the behavior by participating in it. Walk away if its that unfair/important to you, but don't think its on the GM to comply with your wishes. Last edited by bocephus; 01-26-2022 at 03:45 AM. |
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01-26-2022, 04:08 AM | #105 | |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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01-26-2022, 05:01 AM | #106 | |
Join Date: Dec 2020
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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Yes in GURPS terms itīs a wound that wouldnīt hurt enough to be a problem, but the next shallow cut or bruise will add up to the lost HP and you come into the area were it matters. |
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01-26-2022, 05:40 AM | #107 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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Telling your GM "You just made my character ineffective in this game" and them getting mad means you either stop playing, roll over and continue to suffer and end up depressed, or create a new character that abuses their rules. Cause at that point you are never going to be happy trying to play a character you think you would enjoy. This thread should be closed since it is getting side tracked about archery efficiency and everything that needed to be addressed about the OP has been. |
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01-26-2022, 06:51 AM | #108 | ||||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
This is true, but if they're using stone cutting weapons, realistically they should need replaced pretty much after each battle (particularly if used against foes with DR, which it sounds like is more-or-less exclusively what you encounter). If that's not the case (that is, if the melee characters get to keep using the same axe in each battle), the GM should be allowing you to recover your arrows after each battle as well, in which case you only need enough to see you through a battle.
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If you're instead talking about other ways to get multiple attack, those are available to bows. Quick Shooting Bows (or whatever it's called, I forget the exact term) is pretty clearly an application of Rapid Strike to archery - take -6 to attack twice as often as usual (and it's arguably easier to justify a Technique to reduce/negate the penalty). DWA is also available to archers, in the form of nocking two arrows at once. That latter isn't realistic, of course, but neither is buying up DWA in the first place. So, at most, in a realistic setting, melee has the advantage that it can take a -4 to attack twice, while archery cannot. Certainly, melee does have a speed advantage, in that you can attack twice as often (possibly a bit faster, considering there's the risk of failing your Fast Draw). Tactical Shooting allows these for firearms, and I see no issue with extending that to bows. The caveat, of course, is that you have to be in melee range. As another poster said, if archers want to get melee performance, they need to take the risk of getting into melee. There's also the option of adapting from On Target (Pyramid #3/77), which introduces an option to use Committed Attack to get a +1 to hit at range, and boosts All Out Attack to +2 to hit at range. Quote:
Flurry of Blows should absolutely be an option to reduce the penalty for Quick Shooting Bows, just like it does for Rapid Strike (as noted above, the former is really just a special case of the latter). If All Out Attack (Strong) is available to ranged attacks, as outlined above, I see no issue with allowing Mighty Blows. Quote:
Of course, if going balls-to-the-walls cinematic, there's always Bow Fencer from DF, which lets you use Bow skill to Parry (and even attack in melee, using an arrow like a dagger). Quote:
And deer (who the melee fighters would need to be very good at stealth to even get close enough to attack). And boars (who are likely to gore melee fighters - an All Out Attack (Strong) Slam from a big boar is no joke, and likely too heavy to Parry without breaking your weapon). If you live in a crapsack world where every animal is heavily armored yet humans haven't figured out ways around this, and your human foes are 2-3 TL's ahead of you, yeah, archery isn't going to work so well. Really, the problems with archery are low attack rate (~half that of melee), low damage (which is largely an artifact of thr vs sw, particularly when Weapon Master gets involved), and high penalties to hit. They're also not so great at melee range (although at least those attack penalties vanish when in melee range). The benefit is you don't have to be in melee range to attack, so you can take time to line up a shot (Aim), attack from concealment (which is a lot easier when you don't have to step into the well-lit clearing your target is in), attack from a difficult-to-engage position (having the high ground is amazing for ranged combat), engage targets of opportunity more readily (anybody who All Out Attacks is within reach of your arrows), prevent foes from escaping, and so forth. Oh, and you are typically denying the enemy their best defense (Parry), forcing them to rely on Block (if they have a shield) or Dodge. If your side doesn't use tactics (or the GM invalidates tactics other than "attack attack attack" - say, by teleporting the melee attackers into immediate range of each other), archery is going to lag behind melee markedly. If your side makes effective use of tactics, archery can really shine. It will still often lag behind melee, of course - melee fighters take greater risk, and thus have greater rewards.
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GURPS Overhaul Last edited by Varyon; 01-26-2022 at 06:56 AM. |
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01-26-2022, 09:47 AM | #109 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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I'm not saying archers are categorically useless. I am saying that they really are an underperforming option in a joined melee and one usually needs to account for that by earning their keep while melee isn't joined. Which is a thing that was a problem in the OP's scenario.
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01-26-2022, 11:23 AM | #110 | |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.
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Tags |
bow, ranged combat |
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