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Old 05-22-2014, 07:27 AM   #81
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
But politics is not the skill of being-a-great-politician it's a skill of specific competencies which neither encompass everything a politician must be good at nor are found only in politicians.
Indeed - political analysts almost certainly have Politics, but aren't always competent at speaking publicly. There probably shouldn't be a default there.

As for weapon skills that probably shouldn't be lumped together into a single skill but share defaults, Knife and Main Gauche probably shouldn't be lumped into Broadsword (well, Shortsword, but I'm assuming here those two have been condensed together already) and Rapier - if anything, I think the use of such a short weapon is more similar to unarmed combat than use of a sword. Fencing vs Non-Fencing sword skills are debatable in terms of if they should be a single skill or not (I personally lean toward no, but I could see cause to lump them together). Whip and Kusari (which could possibly be lumped into Flail, which itself would be part of Axe/Mace; familiarity would apply) are likely dissimilar enough not to be lumped together. Finally, there's Polearm, which doesn't seem appropriate to lump together with Staff/Spear (which are balanced weapons) or Axe/Mace (which are wielded a good deal differently from Polearms). Polearms could probably be used with such skills to varying degrees, but appropriate use of the weapons should really be its own skill.
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:20 AM   #82
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
But politics is not the skill of being-a-great-politician it's a skill of specific competencies which neither encompass everything a politician must be good at nor are found only in politicians.
But those specific competencies include "talking to politicians".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Indeed - political analysts almost certainly have Politics, but aren't always competent at speaking publicly. There probably shouldn't be a default there..
An analyst who has no skill at talking to people doesn't have Politics. He has Expert Skill: Politics.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:08 PM   #83
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Indeed - political analysts almost certainly have Politics, but aren't always competent at speaking publicly. There probably shouldn't be a default there.
No, I think there should be a default. Politics includes some talking to people and talking to people and talking to lots of people are related. It's just bad that other more primarily talking to people skills don't also allow defaults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As for weapon skills that probably shouldn't be lumped together into a single skill but share defaults, Knife and Main Gauche probably shouldn't be lumped into Broadsword (well, Shortsword, but I'm assuming here those two have been condensed together already) and Rapier - if anything, I think the use of such a short weapon is more similar to unarmed combat than use of a sword. Fencing vs Non-Fencing sword skills are debatable in terms of if they should be a single skill or not (I personally lean toward no, but I could see cause to lump them together). Whip and Kusari (which could possibly be lumped into Flail, which itself would be part of Axe/Mace; familiarity would apply) are likely dissimilar enough not to be lumped together. Finally, there's Polearm, which doesn't seem appropriate to lump together with Staff/Spear (which are balanced weapons) or Axe/Mace (which are wielded a good deal differently from Polearms). Polearms could probably be used with such skills to varying degrees, but appropriate use of the weapons should really be its own skill.
All classic reasoning.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
But those specific competencies include "talking to politicians".
Individually or in small groups. If you are talking to large groups that's public speaking.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
An analyst who has no skill at talking to people doesn't have Politics. He has Expert Skill: Politics.
He would have expert skill: political science only if he was bad at talking to people. If he was bad at speaking publically specifically he could still be good at everything the politics skill includes.
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:09 PM   #84
Terwin
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Plugerville
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
The other thing is that the question is that it's not a matter of being good at things or even an expert. It's about being a nigh-unparalleled master without actual training.
if you have a default good enough to be a nigh-unbparalleled master, then you have had training.
That training may not be explicitly and solely targeted at the defaulted skill, but if you are the indisputable world-wide master at skill A, it would be bizarre for you to be less than amazing at the very similar and closely related skill B.


Remember, once you can no longer find a more skilled teacher, it takes most of a year(40 weeks) of full time work (40 hours/week) spent doing nothing but training that skill to get an additional level. (assuming things do not slow down even further as you get to a point where no one can even challenge you, which is improbable)

As such, I do not find it hard to believe that someone who has been studying broadsword full-time for 30+ years could pick up a short-sword and easily best someone who has been studying that full time for 20+ years (assuming talents and physical abilities are otherwise balanced)

Admittedly if the broadsword user had never seen or used a short sword before, the training discrepancy would need to be larger(see familiarity penalties), but it would still be expected for the much more experienced warrior to win, even with an unfamiliar weapon.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:15 PM   #85
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Terwin View Post
Remember, once you can no longer find a more skilled teacher, it takes most of a year(40 weeks) of full time work (40 hours/week) spent doing nothing but training that skill to get an additional level. (assuming things do not slow down even further as you get to a point where no one can even challenge you, which is improbable)
The training rules are an awkward hack. We really shouldn't conclude anything from them.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:02 PM   #86
Gollum
 
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terwin View Post
Admittedly if the broadsword user had never seen or used a short sword before, the training discrepancy would need to be larger(see familiarity penalties), but it would still be expected for the much more experienced warrior to win, even with an unfamiliar weapon.
I fully do agree with that.

The main goal of okinawaian kobudo training is to learn how to use enough weapons to be able to use any weapon, including improvised ones.

Weapons may vary a lot but their use still has a lot of common principles: right angle to strike, letting your body follow your weapon, keeping your weapon as close as possible from your body to avoid opening your guard, etc. And here, I don't even speak about principles that remain true for every kind of combat, including bare handed one (good stance to have good footing and move quickly, good vertical height to improve your balance, being used to fight and then to read your foe's intents, being used to make very fast move forward or backward, to strike very quickly and with all your strength, without the least hesitation, and so on).

So, a true master of shortsword is certainly more than good with a broadsword, a saber or any other kind of balanced blade.

Last edited by Gollum; 05-22-2014 at 03:09 PM.
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