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Old 05-11-2014, 02:42 PM   #21
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
The Russians have a sleep drug that can be piped in, knocks everyone out almost instantly, and is leathal to a small number of those it knocks out.
Where 'instantly' means 'half an hour' and 'small number' means 20% or so.
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Where 'instantly' means 'half an hour' and 'small number' means 20% or so.
'Fail HT by 5' == 4.6%. Plus don't forget that in Nord-Ost, at least some of the people were hungry, thirsty, mishandled during the evacuation, and denied medical aid because the military refused to tell the doctors anything about the employed toxin and doctors couldn't figure all the nuances in time.

And we're looking for a TL9 gas, not a TL7 or at most 8 one.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
'Fail HT by 5' == 4.6%.
I was talking about the gas used in the Moscow hostage crisis, not some hypothetical UT drug.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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I was talking about the gas used in the Moscow hostage crisis, not some hypothetical UT drug.
I mean that the 4.6% from Langy's write-up is not significantly lower than the Nord-Ost one, given that in the Nord-Ost case, it is likely that a large fraction of victims had negative TDMs to their HT rolls.
We're talking one or two TLs worth of difference. Possibly but unlikely three.

TL differences in drugs are a big thing.
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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I mean that the 4.6% from Langy's write-up is not significantly lower than the Nord-Ost one, given that in the Nord-Ost case, it is likely that a large fraction of victims had negative TDMs to their HT rolls.
We're talking one or two TLs worth of difference. Possibly but unlikely three.

TL differences in drugs are a big thing.
That, and treatment exists for our TL7 gas, but, the doctors weren't told what was causing the harm until there were a lot of dead people. Those Cyclic poisons are a real pain when doctors don't know what will neutralize the poison!
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Where 'instantly' means 'half an hour' and 'small number' means 20% or so.
I don't seem to recall there bieng a time during the employment of the gas where the hostage takers started realizing they are being slowly knocked out by a gas and start killing hostages while screaming 'shut off the gas' in russian in a desperate bid to stop its introduction.

Perhaps 'knocked out' is the wrong word, but 'rendered unable to take any useful action' is close enough in most books.

Further I support Vickies statement. Coming out of the building you did not have many dead- had the medics been informed of what was actually going on or at least told what to use to counteract the gas losses would likely have been much lower, even then 80 of every 100 saved being much higher then the projected numbers for a forced entry then I would term it small number.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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I don't seem to recall there bieng a time during the employment of the gas where the hostage takers started realizing they are being slowly knocked out by a gas and start killing hostages while screaming 'shut off the gas' in russian in a desperate bid to stop its introduction.

.
No, there was a time when the hostage takers realized they were being gassed and decided _not_ to kill the hostages because it would serve no purpose.

Yet another reason this hasn't been repeated.
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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I don't seem to recall there bieng a time during the employment of the gas where the hostage takers started realizing they are being slowly knocked out by a gas and start killing hostages while screaming 'shut off the gas' in russian in a desperate bid to stop its introduction.
There is no real question that the hostage takers knew about the introduction of the gas, and would have been able to respond to it. One of the hostages was able to call a local radio station on her cell phone during the gassing, and if that was possible, it was also possible to start shooting hostages. Why that didn't happen is not entirely clear, since the Russian forces killed all of the hostage takers and thus none are available to answer questions.

I would note that 'daze' gases that simply interfere with thinking are fairly realistic (most narcotics interfere with functioning long before they produce unconsciousness) but inherently unreliable. In game mechanics terms, they either apply Confused, or any irritating condition (B428) except maybe Pain.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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There is no real question that the hostage takers knew about the introduction of the gas, and would have been able to respond to it. One of the hostages was able to call a local radio station on her cell phone during the gassing, and if that was possible, it was also possible to start shooting hostages. Why that didn't happen is not entirely clear, since the Russian forces killed all of the hostage takers and thus none are available to answer questions.

I would note that 'daze' gases that simply interfere with thinking are fairly realistic (most narcotics interfere with functioning long before they produce unconsciousness) but inherently unreliable. In game mechanics terms, they either apply Confused, or any irritating condition (B428) except maybe Pain.
Looking at the timeline I think that the gas may have been more effective then you are indicating:

1. The speical forces waited 1/2 hour before entering, it was not 1/2 hour for effect of the gas.

2. Evidently once the gas started seeping in two of the hostage-takers made a bolt for the balcony and succumbed before making it there; that would indicate to me that the effect was VERY fast.

3. There were still people there able to fight, but some of the hostage-takers had gas masks.

4. Based on interviews with the surviving hostages it would appear that the hostage-takers willingness to kill all of the hostages was not minor.

5. It is proposed that the gas was a strong opiate.

I would come to the conclusion from this that:
1. The gas was very fast acting if you were not wearing a gas mas; less then the time required to register that you are under a gas attack and then run to a balcony.
2. It had some sort of stupifying/pacifying initial effect with minimal exposure, which is why there were not more executions in that half hour period between initial introduction and the raid, this would also explain why the remaining gas-mask equipped hostage takers were not able to put up much resistance to the raid. Side note on the 'why diden't they kill them' perhaps the 'sleep' was sudden and horrifying enough that the hostage-takers in the gas masks figured that the russians were killing EVERYONE and there job was already done, now they just had to remain prepared to go down in a blaze of glory.


I am in no way attempting to justify the russian's use of a toxic substance to quell a hostage taking scenario, nor saying they made the right decision. I am strictly looking at a 'gaming' perspective of the effectiveness of the gas for extrapolation to what such a product would look like with 2-3 full TLs of improvment.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Looking at the timeline I think that the gas may have been more effective then you are indicating:
A hostage who was inside the building, and presumably did not have a gas mask, was able to make a call out after recognizing that a gas attack was occurring, and remained conscious until some time during the actual assault. So yes, for at least parts of the building half an hour is an accurate time estimate.
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