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Old 08-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #11
apoc527
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

One thing that's been bugging me -- Rcl can't be simply "shot spread." Why not? Because why then would 7.62mm rifles have Rcl 3? I can't imagine that they are any less inherently accurate than smaller caliber rifles. Clearly, Rcl is some amalgam of shot spread plus "controllability" plus "felt recoil." "Felt recoil" is also part of MinST.

Anyway, I think that generally Rcl can be used in place of "shot spread" but it's not SOLELY that, unless I'm misunderstanding what shot spread is, which is possible.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

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Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
This at least sounds like it should be quite realistic.



This seems like a pretty effective game mechanic.



I really just want something that is quick to explain and at least symbolically represents reality. :)


Any thoughts on how this problem applies to shotguns?
There are some rules for shotgun chokes in both HT: Adventure Guns 1 or 2 and in the Military Sci-Fi Pyramid article, "Tactical Shooting: Tomorrow."

Basically, with a full choke, you treat "extremely close range" as 20% of the 1/2D instead of 10% and beyond that, you get -1 to Guns, but hit with x1.5 shots.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:25 PM   #13
lexington
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

Quote:
Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
One thing that's been bugging me -- Rcl can't be simply "shot spread." Why not? Because why then would 7.62mm rifles have Rcl 3? I can't imagine that they are any less inherently accurate than smaller caliber rifles. Clearly, Rcl is some amalgam of shot spread plus "controllability" plus "felt recoil." "Felt recoil" is also part of MinST.

Anyway, I think that generally Rcl can be used in place of "shot spread" but it's not SOLELY that, unless I'm misunderstanding what shot spread is, which is possible.
Shot spread seems to be more a matter of Acc than Rcl, the Minute of Arc that you can achieve is based on the Acc. MinST is where felt recoil is. Because of that I think Rcl is an abstract measure of controllability.

Rcl1 totally controllable (a laser)
Rcl2 controllable (a pistol or assault rifle)
Rcl3 hard to control (a full caliber rifle or large pistol)
Rcl4+ impossible to control (a hilariously large pistol, a shotgun, a large rifle)
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #14
MatthewVilter
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

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Originally Posted by lexington View Post
Shot spread seems to be more a matter of Acc than Rcl, the Minute of Arc that you can achieve is based on the Acc. MinST is where felt recoil is. Because of that I think Rcl is an abstract measure of controllability.

Rcl1 totally controllable (a laser)
Rcl2 controllable (a pistol or assault rifle)
Rcl3 hard to control (a full caliber rifle)
Rcl4+ impossible to control (a hilariously large pistol, a shotgun, a large rifle)
This fits with my understanding of Rcl.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:35 PM   #15
apoc527
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
Shot spread seems to be more a matter of Acc than Rcl, the Minute of Arc that you can achieve is based on the Acc. MinST is where felt recoil is. Because of that I think Rcl is an abstract measure of controllability.

Rcl1 totally controllable (a laser)
Rcl2 controllable (a pistol or assault rifle)
Rcl3 hard to control (a full caliber rifle or large pistol)
Rcl4+ impossible to control (a hilariously large pistol, a shotgun, a large rifle)
I think this is correct as well.
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Old 08-26-2013, 06:53 AM   #16
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
Rcl1 totally controllable (a laser)
Rcl2 controllable (a pistol or assault rifle)
Rcl3 hard to control (a full caliber rifle or large pistol)
Rcl4+ impossible to control (a hilariously large pistol, a shotgun, a large rifle)
You need to be talking about the round's power and not the weapon's size. a 2 shot derringer loaded with .44 Magnum (yes, they makes things like that) is RCL 5 while a S&W 629 is only RCL 4. That's a case where a larger pistol has less RCL.

Projectile weight appears to have an effect as well. Shotguns with slugs have higher RCL than either guns with comparable Bulk or or penetrating power.
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:21 AM   #17
lexington
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You need to be talking about the round's power and not the weapon's size. a 2 shot derringer loaded with .44 Magnum (yes, they makes things like that) is RCL 5 while a S&W 629 is only RCL 4. That's a case where a larger pistol has less RCL.

Projectile weight appears to have an effect as well. Shotguns with slugs have higher RCL than either guns with comparable Bulk or or penetrating power.
I'm talking about neither the power of the round nor the size of the weapon. I'm assuming that Rcl is sufficiently granular and vague that my impression of "how hard is this to control?" will be sufficient to estimate Rcl. So when I say "a hilariously large pistol" I mean a Deagle not a ten pound lead pipe with a pistol grip that fires .22 short (although I admit that would be amusing).
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:35 AM   #18
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
I'm talking about neither the power of the round nor the size of the weapon. I'm assuming that Rcl is sufficiently granular and vague that my impression of "how hard is this to control?" will be sufficient to estimate Rcl. So when I say "a hilariously large pistol" I mean a Deagle not a ten pound lead pipe with a pistol grip that fires .22 short (although I admit that would be amusing).
<shrug> You're basing your impressions on the wrong factors and will be wrong in a non-trivial percentage of cases.

As another example, a.50 Barrett has RCL 3.That's less than a Winchester Model 70 at RCL4. A BAR fires the 30-06 same as the Model 70 but it is RCL 2 largely because it weighs about 2x the Model 70.
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:56 AM   #19
lexington
 
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> You're basing your impressions on the wrong factors and will be wrong in a non-trivial percentage of cases.
Entirely true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
As another example, a.50 Barrett has RCL 3.That's less than a Winchester Model 70 at RCL4. A BAR fires the 30-06 same as the Model 70 but it is RCL 2 largely because it weighs about 2x the Model 70.
But again, I'm not naively basing my impression of the power of the round so I wouldn't automatically assume that the BAR and the Model 70 would have the same Rcl.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B

It seems to me that controllability would be based mostly on projectile power and weapon weight with ergonomics playing some part. This seems in line with lexington's original rundown. I guess you could interpret "a large rifle" being in the Rcl 4+ category as including things like BAR (which would lead to poor results) but I think his list makes it clear that power and size play a role (eg large pistol = 3 vs assault rifle = 2).
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