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Old 10-14-2021, 09:17 AM   #11
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post

A mage with a a power item, who knows Invisibility and Silence, can walk up to a dragon and put him on hold for one minute - with no resistance -...
Nope. The Spell is Resisted by Will. Dragons being what they are it's comparatively rare that any Resisted Spell will work on them.

So you've got a (VH) Spell osting 10 energy that will effectively Daze a target for 1 minute if the Resistance Roll fails and give the caster a Skill for 24 hours afterwards.

It might work on average will merchants in the bazaar but I wouldn't waste the 10 energy (multiplied by SM+1) trying it on a Dragon. Daze would probably work just as well (or just as poorly) for the "ambush set-up" scenario.
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:22 AM   #12
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Nope. The Spell is Resisted by Will. Dragons being what they are it's comparatively rare that any Resisted Spell will work on them.

So you've got a (VH) Spell osting 10 energy that will effectively Daze a target for 1 minute if the Resistance Roll fails and give the caster a Skill for 24 hours afterwards.

It might work on average will merchants in the bazaar but I wouldn't waste the 10 energy (multiplied by SM+1) trying it on a Dragon. Daze would probably work just as well (or just as poorly) for the "ambush set-up" scenario.
Well, I'm past it now, but if you read the spell description, it says that the caster and subject can do nothing for the full duration of 1 minute, and that the resistance roll is made at the end of that duration. It's a messed-up spell is my point. I'm not trying to argue that you should be able to subdue a dragon with this spell. I'm trying to point out that the spell, as written, is unworkable without a bunch of workarounds for what it actually does.
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:41 AM   #13
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Well, I'm past it now, but if you read the spell description, it says that the caster and subject can do nothing for the full duration of 1 minute, and that the resistance roll is made at the end of that duration. s.
Actually it says the "results" of the Resistance Roll are unknown until the end of the minute. The roll would take place at casting as usual and I wouldn't impose any effects on a target who succesfully Resisted. The _caster_ might lapse into a trance for a minute.

<shrug> It's a Spell that someone thought Mad Necromancers should have available to use on chained down victims and then they tried to project t into another scenario so it wouldn't just be "Magic, Evil Npcs, for the use of".
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:55 AM   #14
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Actually it says the "results" of the Resistance Roll are unknown until the end of the minute. The roll would take place at casting as usual and I wouldn't impose any effects on a target who succesfully Resisted. The _caster_ might lapse into a trance for a minute.

<shrug> It's a Spell that someone thought Mad Necromancers should have available to use on chained down victims and then they tried to project t into another scenario so it wouldn't just be "Magic, Evil Npcs, for the use of".
Ökay. All that makes sense. I guess I was thrown by "The outcome of the struggle (i.e., the resistance roll) remains unknown until the casting is complete." It seems like the reading you're suggesting (which does make the most sense) would mean that the outcome was immediately known unless it were successful - which would in almost any case mean it was also immediately known. (I.e. if the subject doesn't react violently, you've succeeded.) The only case in which the outcome would remain unknown, given this reading, is with an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated victim. So why doesn't the spell say that? Because other spells do indicate that the victim must be helpless.

But anyway, what do you think of my awesome Mimic Skill spell?! It's the first time I ever invented a magic spell.
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Old 10-14-2021, 10:34 AM   #15
Anthony
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

I interpret it as "The spell fails if the target does anything", meaning it's basically not usable on targets that aren't incapacitated.
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Old 10-14-2021, 10:56 AM   #16
finn
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
No kidding. But none of that stuff is in the spell description. So how does it work? I'm mainly asking if anyone has a fix for this spell, because as written, it's got a lot of holes and doesn't make much sense.
It says so in the sentence "The caster must ... for the duration". If the caster fails to do what is a "must", the caster fails to cast to spell.

There is nothing in the rule that suggests that merely trying to cast Steal Skill would have any supernatural affect on the subject. If it had such a spectacular special effect for just trying to cast a spell, which is really unorthodox for a GURPS spell, you can expect it to be described in the spell description.

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Compared to Borrow Skill (also a prerequisite) - where both caster and subject must be willing - you'd expect Steal Skill to work somehow with an unwilling subject. So must the subject be incapacitated? And if so, how is that an improvement from only working on a willing subject? If anything, it makes Steal Skill much less valuable, as you're forced to subdue your subject first.
You don't necessarily need to subdue the subject. The subject can be willing, a sleep, tricked, etc. Having more choices in addition to having the subject willing is an improvement.

Also, Steal Skill has a duration of 24 hours, which is also an improvement.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
How does Severin perform this spell on a merchant in a bazaar on the way to somewhere else?
I agree that it's an unintuitive example. The intention of the example is to show how the skill level of the stolen skill is calculated, but casting Steal Skill on a "first bazaar merchant he passes" requires a lot of imagination on the part of the reader to explain how the casting was done. A different kind of subject should have been chosen for the example.

Last edited by finn; 10-14-2021 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 10-14-2021, 02:56 PM   #17
Dalillama
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

Steal Skill, like Steal Attribute, Steal Youth, etc. is a spell designed to be used by evil necromancers who have innocent victims strapped to racks in their chamber of horrors. They have a long casting time so that the PCs can heroically intervene to save the said innocents. IIRC they first showed up in GURPS Conan, but lost all the context over the next few editions.
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:11 PM   #18
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by Dalillama View Post
Steal Skill, like Steal Attribute, Steal Youth, etc. is a spell designed to be used by evil necromancers who have innocent victims strapped to racks in their chamber of horrors. They have a long casting time so that the PCs can heroically intervene to save the said innocents. IIRC they first showed up in GURPS Conan, but lost all the context over the next few editions.
It also works for malicious witch/spirits who sneak up on people in their sleep to mess with them. But yes, some spells were never intended to be particularly useful for player characters.
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Old 10-14-2021, 05:09 PM   #19
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

Magic is a low-quality book. It was rushed out during the early years of 4e because of the perceived need to support fantasy play right away.

So basically, the GM has to make up a lot of how Steal Skill works. If you like the idea of the spell, give it whatever mechanics suit your setting and concept of magic and don't sweat the printed text.
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:45 PM   #20
Keampe
 
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Default Re: How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
neither character can do anything for that duration.
This is the culprit right here - it's vague. Is this referring to an effect of the spell or a requirement of it's casting?

My view, it's the later.

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