Magic of Middle Earth

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Inky

The elves of Lorien claim not to understand what is meant by "magic" and that this is simply how things work; but at other times people (who weren't using "dark magic", either) are definitely said to use definite "spells" and I'm not sure that those people weren't even sometimes elves.

Galadriel didn't say she didn't understand the word "spells"; she said she didn't understand the word "magic." She didn't understand it because it was used to describe two very different things: the Art of Subcreation, which adds to the glory and splendor of the world, and the deceits of the Enemy: illusions, phantasms, cheats.

You could say that the "spells" in this case weren't so much "spells" in themselves as passwords, and could have been set to anything. But the same can't be said for "naur an edraith ammen", for instance (the words Gandalf used to light the campfire, which, I've just read, translate as "fire be, for the saving of us"). There wasn't any existing magic that that had to slot into.

Tolkien uses the word "spell" in its older sense of "words spoken to produce a magical effect." It's not just the words, though: there has to be power behind them. When Frodo names Elbereth in front of the Black Riders at Weathertop, Elbereth answers and gives his words power. That's a spell, even though Frodo is no wizard. When he says it again at the Ford of Bruinen, she does not answer and the name has no effect.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by khorboth

I haven't seen the series mentioned, and I don't want to dismiss this very true fact of song-based magic.

But it's also frequently tied to objects. Not just the rings. Kingsfoil was unlocked by noble blood. Elven rope burned Gollum. Elven blades glowed in the presense of orcs. Both versions of Grond were mighty weapons. Anduril launched the flaming sword trope. And that's just off the top of my head.

Absolutely. Although I think Excalibur also flamed at one point.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Anders

Absolutely. Although I think Excalibur also flamed at one point.

And there are angels with flaming swords in the Bible (Genesis 3:24). The giant Surtr had a flaming sword in Norse myth. And there’s a flaming sword called Dyrnwyn in Celtic myth, one of the Thirteen Treasures of Britain.

[Stormcrow]

Eh? Andúril wasn't literally a flaming sword, and it certainly didn't launch the flaming-sword trope.

"Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West."

[Kallatari]

Though I would view this more of a secondary/less-reliable source, the Lord of the Rings RPG (Decipher) defined wizards vs magicians as follows:

p.88 Magicians (sometimes referred to as conjurers) are uncommon in Middle-Earth and rarely enter the chronicles of the West. A few folk, such as the foul Mouth of Sauron, are known to have studied the arcane arts, and powers attributed to others may indicate that they can cast spells.

p.146: Magicians: By far the most common type of spellcaster in Middle-Earth is the magician, less powerful and generally less learned that the wizard. Indeed, many "magicians" are nothing of the sort, being mere charlatans tricking ignorant folk through jugglery and deceit.

Like wizards, magicians (and lore-masters who can cast spells) tend to be solitary and secretive, preferring their own company to that of others. This allows them to pursue their studies and the perfection of their craft undisturbed by the mundane needs of common folk. At the same time, the needs of their craft and the wisdom that often comes to them as a result of their lore sometimes compels them to... <snip>... join together with other magicians in groups. These groups vary wildly from place to place. A formal order patterned after that of the Five Wizards, a coven of witches associated with some Easternling kingdom, and a group of Gondorian scholars who meet regularly to discuss and debate could all qualify as groups of magicians.

Magicians acquire their powers in one of two ways. The first is through an inner talent or capacity for magic ("attuned" to magic). This is most commonly seen among the Elves. The second method, mostly seen among Men and Dwarves, is through study and lore. Though not inherently evil, this method of learning magic is suspect, since it often leads to a fascination with "dark arts" and a descent into the practices of sorcery.

p.146: Wizards: More powerful than magicians are spellcasters who belong to the "Order of Wizards". The mightiest of these, the chiefs of the order, are the Five Wizards: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown, and the two passed into the East and never came into the records of the West. Although few know it, these five and the other early members of their order are emissaries from the Uttermost West. The Valar sent them to aid and encourage the Free People to resist the Shadow. Though they are in truth something more than Men, the Five Wizards and others of their kind are constrained by the shapes the must take in Middle-Earth.

After arriving in Middle-Earth <snip> the Five Wizards did was seek those among the Free People who might be worthy of membership in the order. Finding magicians of noble heart and valorous mien, they trained and tutored them, eventually inducting the worthiest of their students as wizards themselves. [games terms: Wizard is a specialty class for high-level Magicians]

Hope that helped.

[Prince Charon]

I mentioned earlier that there are probably multiple magic systems on Middle Earth. You've got the skill-magic where there really isn't a gap or hard line between 'magic' and 'not magic;' there's material magic (probably including Herb Lore), which may overlap in use with skill-magic (e.g. you know which oils to mix for quenching a sword that will glow to give away your position warn you in the presence of evil, perhaps); there's Magic-as-Powers, which I think might fit Beorn and his folk, among others; there's probably one or more that I'm forgetting; finally, there the 'deceptions of the Enemy' that Galadriel mentions when complaining about the hobbits use of the word 'magic.'

For this post I'm going to talk about skill-magic, since I've been thinking about it recently. So, multiple people in this thread have pointed out that the working of this magic is just 'knowing the lore of things,' like High Craft/Mysteries of the Trade (GURPS Thaumatology and GURPS Fantasy, IIRC). There's a few different ways to represent this:

* Use a Path/Book Magic style or styles with the craft/art skill as either the core skill or a prerequisite and complementary skill. Depending on versatility, this might be a Book style or a Path style.

* Adapt a Symbol Drawing style for use with that art/craft skill. GURPS Thaumatology: Urban Magics has a couple of examples of this, with Lapidism on p18 and Sacred Architecture on pp21-23. Again, the mundane skill is important, though the core skill does need to be a form of Symbol Drawing.

* The simplest and possibly the most Tolkienesque method is to have each 'spell'/'magical effect' be a learnable perk, or a technique defaulting from the mundane skill. Which should be a perk (or a leveled perk) and which a technique (and how great a penalty is needed) is something the GM will need to judge.


EDIT: Relating to this, I vaguely recall something about great craftsmen putting so much of themselves into some great works that they are literally 'lesser' after making them, as when Feanor made the Silmirils or Sauron forged the One Ring (the latter perhaps being partially a way to preserve his power in a world that was fading; of course, he put so much of himself in it that the Ring had a personality and made choices, and he was massively weakened when he lost it). If I'm interpreting that correctly, one way to represent that might be to treat these items as Gadgets (with Can Be Stolen), and rearrange the maker's points (reducing attributes, advantages, and skills as necessary, or adding disadvantages) so that a lot of them are in the item.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Galadriel didn't say she didn't understand the word "spells"; she said she didn't understand the word "magic." She didn't understand it because it was used to describe two very different things: the Art of Subcreation, which adds to the glory and splendor of the world, and the deceits of the Enemy: illusions, phantasms, cheats.



Tolkien uses the word "spell" in its older sense of "words spoken to produce a magical effect." It's not just the words, though: there has to be power behind them. When Frodo names Elbereth in front of the Black Riders at Weathertop, Elbereth answers and gives his words power. That's a spell, even though Frodo is no wizard. When he says it again at the Ford of Bruinen, she does not answer and the name has no effect.

Similarly, in The Hobbit the dwarves know spells for hiding buried treasure and opening locked doors.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

EDIT: Relating to this, I vaguely recall something about great craftsmen putting so much of themselves into some great works that they are literally 'lesser' after making them, as when Feanor made the Silmirils or Sauron forged the One Ring

I wrote the first chapter of my PhD thesis that way. I have paid for my wisdom, but I got it and it is precious to me.

[Inky]

(I'm not sure about any of this posting. I haven't got any of the books handy and it's a while since I read them and I'm working from memory.)

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Galadriel didn't say she didn't understand the word "spells"; she said she didn't understand the word "magic." She didn't understand it because it was used to describe two very different things: the Art of Subcreation, which adds to the glory and splendor of the world, and the deceits of the Enemy: illusions, phantasms, cheats.

Thinking about it now, I was probably really thinking of what the elves who claimed not to understand what was meant by "magic cloaks" said. They made like they didn't practice any kind of separate "magic" and that was just what happened when you made things really well. Whereas anything that can be described as a "spell" is, at the least, a deliberate extra thing. (Except of course in the case of the storytellers who created illusions of what they were singing about, where singing was what they were doing. But the same couldn't be said for weaving cloaks.) Could also be, though, that some elves used separate spells and some didn't and perhaps didn't even know about them.

I'd say that the Middle-earth books assume that things in general are magical, rather than magic being a separate thing powered by some separate "mana" or something. Hence a good enough song, or good enough craftsmanship, or a particular plant like kingsfoil, or an ancient tree or whatever, may produce magical effects and nobody is surprised. It's a pantheistic system, or pan-magical, or whatever the correct word would be.


Nobody's mentioned this so far, but having song be an important form of magic would be appropriate for Middle-earth, since according to the "creation myth" in The Silmarillion Middle-earth came out of a song.
(Cliff notes version for those who haven't got The Silmarillion: In the beginning the Maiar and Valar, Tolkien's fictional angels and archangels, sang the story of a world, and God (referred to as "Eru, the One") was pleased and said "Let this thing Be!" and sent some of them to make that world. One of them, Melkor (later known as Morgoth), was jealous because he couldn't create things by himself without God's help and set out to take over the new world. God decided to let him try because it only made the song more interesting, but told the other Valar that they mustn't let it go too far.)
Perhaps (and I've an idea Tolkien may have said this somewhere) the right songs can become part of the world song and change what happens.


It wouldn't be incongruous to have "magic" in a Middle-earth game be entirely on a clerical/divine favour system. (I'm not saying this is or isn't exactly what Tolkien had in mind, but it wouldn't look out of place with what the books say.) On that basis, Eru is at the back of everything but mostly leaves things to the Valar and Maiar (fifteen Valar and each has a large number of Maiar under them), and they might do things if they approve of the aim. (Reaction roll or Pact limitation? But there does also seem to be some kind of power or secret knowledge that improves your chances and turns this from a freak incident into a semi-predictable ability. The Wizards and the High Elves have it and Numenoreans like Aragorn have it to a lesser extent.)
Meanwhile, "black magicians" perhaps get power from Morgoth or Sauron, if they're serving their ends, but it's often suggested that they have limits in that, since they don't have Eru's co-operation, they can't create things, only damage or distort them or make illusions.
The Elves sometimes seem to pray (in their own languages) or call on the names of the Valar instead of exactly "casting spells", like at Rivendell. And you could say that the "magic spells" used by Men and Dwarves who do think of what they're doing as "magic" are in fact those Elvish phrases, used as fixed pieces of ritual gibberish by people who don't remember what they mean, and if the Valar approve of the intentions they sometimes oblige anyway.

[Kallatari]

Just to provide more info regarding magic for consideration, again coming from the LoTR RPG (Decipher). This is how that game defined magic, which you may want to consider when trying to define it in GURPS.

Spellcasting in Middle-Earth is subtle and flavorful. There are no fireballs or lightning, teleportation, flying spells, etc. Different races perceive magic differently. To Elves magic is natural and a part of their being. Men regard magic as something to study and learn. All races - even orcs - can learn to cast spells. That said, there are no known hobbit spellcasters, and dwarven mages are also very rare. Even when they know the same spells, different races - and even different nations of the same race - often cast them differently. For example, Orc magic is harsh and crude, used mainly to harm and kill.

There are two types of spellcasting magic: wizardry and sorcery. Wizardry is the standard magic of magicians and wizards (the master magicians who have joined the Order of Wizards). Sorcery is a dark and evil form of wizardry, practiced primarily by the Enemy. These are the spells of anguish, torment, ruin, despair and death. The use of Sorcery spells is Corrupting. [My opinion: the Corruption works like Corruption in GURPS Horror, but instead of monstrous traits, it give "evil" disadvantages like Greed, Selfishness, Megalomaniac, etc.],

Magicians and wizards often - but are not required to - specialize in their study of magic, becoming better in one form at the cost of being less able in others. Examples include:
- Spell Specialties by types of spells [My opinion: essentially, improving One-College Magery in GURPS]:

• Air and Storm;
• Beasts and Birds;
• Fire, Smoke and Light;
• Secret Fire;
• Sorcery; and
• Water.

- Spellcasting Method Specialties: Knowing a method does not require that it be used; someone who knows Runes can cast the spell either normally or by using Runes. Not all spells can be cast using these methods. [My opinion: harder to stat this out in GURPS. First stab at this would be Talent (Runes) or Talent (Songs of Power) - both 10 x level - which only add bonus when using spell in that method, and you need it at least at level 1 to use that method]

• Runes: favored by dwarves; must write the rune down as part of spellcasting, taking minimum 1 minute or double the normal casting time to cast, the duration of the spell is increased by 50%
• Songs of Power: favored by elves; cast by singing instead of incantations, takes minimum of 1 minute or double the normal casting time to cast, the damage/effect of the spell is increased by 50%

(In the LoTR RPG, 1 round is 6 seconds, so 1 minute is 10 rounds... for consideration when converting minimum 1 minute casting time to a GURPS equivalent)

Spellcasting mechanism: Spellcasting requires that the magician speak words of commands (cannot cast if gagged) and gestures (cannot cast if tied up). Roll "weariness test". If successful, spell is cast successfully. If failed, the spell fails and you gain weariness (i.e., fatigue), with greater amount with larger margins of failure. Each successful spell cast gives cumulative penalties to casting more spells for minimum next minute, or for as long as the spell is active/maintained, whichever is longer. [My opinion: the standard GURPS Magic fatigue system works well enough to duplicate the concept of this even thought the mechanics are different; cast too many spells in too short a time without resting drains all your fatigue away]

Counterspell: a wizard can counter any spells he knows by casting that spell as the counter.

Magic Abilities: a wizard who masters a spell can turn it into a magical ability, removing the need for speaking magical words, gestures, and the fatigue cost. [my opinion: this becomes the equivalent to high enough skill level for no energy, and take penalties for no gestures or incantations, so can also be duplicated using standard GURPS Magic rules already]

[My opinion: I think that, overall, the GURPS Magic rules are a nice fit for LoTR, at least with respect to how spellcasting works. The GURPS spell list is completely wrong however, and doesn't fit the setting. You'd have to throw out most of the actual spells. But the mechanics work well enough. Maybe the only tweak I'd make is replace the automatic reduction of energy cost at skill levels 15, 20, 25, etc. to a reduction based on margin of success. (Well, actually, I'd probably rebuild all the spells using Powers, but that's personal bias, not because GURPS Magic doesn't work)]

Finally, there are other magics in Middle Earth than spellcasting. Other types of magic are more an issue of story/narration than learned ability. They include:

• The Rightness of Things
• The Mirror of Nature
• Beast Speech
• Honoring the Valiant
• The Power of Words
• Oaths and Curses
• Fate and Foretelling / Prophecy

Again, I'm just providing this as a source of inspiration for those who want to use it, along with my initial thoughts of how I'd adapt it to GURPS without doing a full analysis. The source is second-hand (an RPG, not the actual books), but off-hand it seems they did their research for this.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Tolkien absolutely did not use the word "wizard" to mean "very skilled person" in any of his writings. As I just pointed out, we are told exactly what he meant by it. Furthermore, I believe the slang usage didn't emerge until the 1920s — Tolkien would never have used such modern slang in his writing. When Tolkien says the Elves of Nargothrond used wizardry, he meant magic.

In the Lord of the Rings universe, what exactly does it mean to be a wizard? says the exact opposite:

"Wizard as Tolkien describes it is not a magician, but a wise man. Someone with skill and wisdom at its disposal, not magic as such."

Merriam-Webster states the archaic meaning of "Wizard" is wise man : sage. It says nothing about this original version of the word meaning "user of magic".

Oxford states the origin as "late Middle English (in the sense ‘philosopher, sage’): from wise + -ard."

The Tolkien gateway states, regarding wizard:

"Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (though suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came." The Istari in the Unfinished Tales , J.R.R. Tolkien

There is nothing about magic or spell casting in that.

As I said. given Tolkien was a professor of literature one has to be careful what one reads into his use of "wizard". The Elves of Nargothrond example above could just as easily be read as 'with stealth and ambush, with extreme skill (wizardry") and venomed dart... pursued all strangers...'