[Racial Template] Na'vi (Avatar)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Eltharon

The problem with a Earth/Pandora war, as I see it, is that if Earth really wanted Pandora, enough to send more then a battalion of light infantry with air support, there would be nothing the mystical energy field thingy, or the natives, or the scientists, could do about it. I mean, the forest animals are nasty, but if I were the military leader in charge, I'd just napalm most of the needed jungle to the ground, install an air defense network next to the mining areas, and clear out the natives with heavy armored units. Not a very interesting story, eh? I mean, if there's one thing humanity proved, it's that it's the most dangerous and ruthless species on the face of Earth, and it's never been deterred by dangerous animals or natives before.

Judging from just the trailer and the introductory text, the movie did not have even a shred of plausibility.

Either you make peace with that before you walk in or you don't enjoy it. Two choices.

Or at least that's how I see it.

[Eltharon]

Well, having seen it, I can confirm the lack of plausibility. It has the Force--I mean the planet energy thing, the inability of futuristic weapons to penetrate animal hide, and (worst, IMO) trans-atmospheric shuttles and their escorts traveling at speeds slow enough for flying reptiles to fly faster then them...but those are all space opera-y enough for some people not to notice. It's rather impossible to imagine Earth just not doing anything. It would be like if after Star Wars: A New Hope (which contains not even a shred of real science, but is still awesome), the Empire just sort of did its thing and didn't worry about the fact that the Death Star had been destroyed. People can overlook X-Wings making noise in space, but basic political reality cannot be so readily ignored.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Eltharon

People can overlook X-Wings making noise in space, but basic political reality cannot be so readily ignored.

Why? It's no worse than sound in space or a myriad of other implausibilities/unrealistic depictions.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Eltharon

Well, having seen it, I can confirm the lack of plausibility. It has the Force--I mean the planet energy thing, the inability of futuristic weapons to penetrate animal hide, and (worst, IMO) trans-atmospheric shuttles and their escorts traveling at speeds slow enough for flying reptiles to fly faster then them...but those are all space opera-y enough for some people not to notice. It's rather impossible to imagine Earth just not doing anything. It would be like if after Star Wars: A New Hope (which contains not even a shred of real science, but is still awesome), the Empire just sort of did its thing and didn't worry about the fact that the Death Star had been destroyed. People can overlook X-Wings making noise in space, but basic political reality cannot be so readily ignored.

It's implied that sending anything from earth to pandora is very expensive, hence the low numbers of human troops. This is also the work of a company, not some earth goverment, and one would hope that after earth (which is hopefully still dominated by somewhat democratic nations) learns about what has happened people would not allow them to go back to pandora with any more military hardware.

I'm not sure what you mean with the Force referance, the Navi 'god' seems to be a planetwide biological neural network. Which is grantedly bloody unlikely to happen naturally, but can be rationalized as some remnant of lost bio-tech civilization (this could also explain super-tough wildlife).

(Also they're flying slow due to flying on sight through narrow mountains, so he's at least bothered to throw us a bone or two.)

[Eltharon]

The force reference is too the line where one of the researchers actually says something about an energy field connecting all living things. Which is, of course, almost exactly what Obi Wan says in Star Wars.

[HuManBing]

It bears a strong similarity with the concept of a neural net sentience, which doesn't always have to be the quasi-religious Kenobi type from Star Wars. Relatively hard sci-fi also visits it, as seen in Herbert's "The Jesus Incident" and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

Weaver's character described it as that, but for me it was just a scientist simplifying the concept for a corporate type.

[SuedodeuS]

Earth vs Pandora: Earth as a whole lacks the means and motive to wage war on Pandora. The "means" side is because the planet is too locked up in its own wars to spare a dedicated force to take out some blue-skinned natives on a hostile world 5 years away. The "motive" side is that the only thing Earth is interested in on Pandora is the Unobtainium, and that probably isn't worth the negative PR that carpet-bombing the planet with napalm would generate. Also, the RDA has exclusive rights to Pandora - so only what the RDA is willing to send will be sent (at least for now).

Monster Hides: Yeah, this was pretty ridiculous. Now, it is true that the monsters most likely had hides reinforced by the same naturally occurring carbon fibers as the Na'vi's bones. It is also true that models have indicated carbon fiber meshes to have ridiculous stopping power - I seem to recall one that had such meshes only a few molecules thick and stopping a round from a .38 special dead. Said models look at things on the molecular level, and at the macro scale things behave a bit differently. However, Jake Sully's avatar was using an appropriately-scaled LMG that, loaded with AP rounds, should have easily punched through the thanator's armor. The fact that even the AMPs (which the wiki states use AP rounds) appeared unable to punch through said armor - and yet could do so reliably with a freaking knife - implies high cinematic license.

Human forces: The human forces on Pandora were not a strike force. They were a glorified security detail for a mining operation. All their flyers were intended for transportation roles, not combat. The AMPs themselves are basically powerloaders and were intended for carrying crap around.
Another reason, of course, is that the RDA is restricted by treaty to not carry around extreme military hardware in space.

Religion: I highly doubt there would be any change in religions based on what happened on Pandora. This is not because the existence of Eywa is insignificant - it's because nobody will believe Eywa exists. Looking at the battle from the viewpoint of the RDA, it seems more plausible that the Na'vi sent/manipulated all those animals into stampeding the killzone to back up their brethren than that there were indeed some planetwide deity sending them to protect its children.
That said, if for some reason people got (and believed) Jake Sully's side, I suspect many of the Christian churches would denounce Eywa as a deceiver (possibly an agent of the devil, or even the antichrist itself). A good many people would likely draw parallels between Pandora and the mythical Garden of Eden - the similarities between "Eywa" and "Yahweh" aren't entirely subtle, the planet kind of matches the story (tropical paradise where the animals have turned against man after his fall), and one can even go so far as to equate the poisonous atmosphere with the flaming sword set up to keep people out.

Pandora spreading: This actually doesn't seem highly plausible. Jake really wasn't kidding when he said the humans have nothing the Na'vi want. They have no interest in taking to the stars - why would they, when Eywa gives all that they need? Eywa itself may not be willing to let the sky people kill its children, but that doesn't mean it fears the inevitable and would want to spread elsewhere (and it may be unable to spread elsewhere, as Unobtainium may well be crucial to some aspect of its memory or sentience).
Of course, a lot of this interpretation revolves around what the movie was about - nature over technology. The Na'vi can't want what the humans have or else it destroys the point. If you want to run a campaign where the Na'vi (or indeed Eywa itself) are interested in space travel, it can certainly make for a interesting situations.

[Eltharon]

Originally Posted by HuManBing

It bears a strong similarity with the concept of a neural net sentience, which doesn't always have to be the quasi-religious Kenobi type from Star Wars. Relatively hard sci-fi also visits it, as seen in Herbert's "The Jesus Incident" and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

Weaver's character described it as that, but for me it was just a scientist simplifying the concept for a corporate type.

Oh, I understand the idea is different. It's just you'd think the scriptwriters would have picked a different way to say it.

As for an Earth strike force, I thought unobtanium was somehow essential to the survival of Earth or something. Which means that Earth will probably want more.
If it's just really expensive fancy stuff that RDA can sell, then yeah, Earth probably doesn't care, though RDA Security is probably the butt of jokes for years to come.

[Nurn]

Unobtanium is essential for matter-antimater reaction and building drives in star ships. Unobtanium is essential for RDA to build more ships.

Is it essential for Earth energy problem? In my opinion not. They have fussion reactors on Earth. And a lot of helium-3 on Saturn and a little in rocks of Moon. Deutyrium is in Earth water.

Unobtanium is also a superconductor. It means better electronics.

I think Earth need unobtanium. But really so badly?

Other thing - RDA space ships (10, non stop flying, 5 years in one way). They carry 200 people. For this moment RDA is able to bring 200 personel per year to Pandora. Not enermose amount.

Negotiations are cheaper. You need 10 negotiators. Not hundreads of soldiers. When transport is so expansive this factor is crucial. What is cheaper?

If I were smart RDA manager I would suggest. This war was unauthorized. Not RDA manager started it, but killed military officer. Poor. We can't put him to jail. Send 10 negotiators. Negotiate peace. Create new idea what whey would really want (spacefaring). Negotiate. Becouse in this moment we aren't able to send a massive army there. Sending there full fleged army takes years (1000 soldier takes 5 years). And we could have unobtanium faster and cheaper. Why not try? In worst case 10 negotiators would be killed by Na'vi. Better 10 negotiators than 500 or 1000 soldiers.

Eywa has memory of Grace. She knows that humans came to Pandora again. And again. And again. And many of them are eager to fight and kill.

Humans will bring more army to Pandora. It is obvious. But if earlier negotiations with Na'vi would be positive, and unobtanium flows, there will be no need in starting war. Or maybe will be, becouse hunger will rise in time? And what Humans find on other planets? Pandora is at Alpha Centauri. What about other near stars? Galaxy is realy big.

[jbalsle]

Originally Posted by Nurn

Humans will bring more army to Pandora. It is obvious. But if earlier negotiations with Na'vi would be positive, and unobtanium flows, there will be no need in starting war. Or maybe will be, becouse hunger will rise in time? And what Humans find on other planets? Pandora is at Alpha Centauri. What about other near stars? Galaxy is realy big.

Sorry to sort of necro the thread, but this does interest me.

I'd agree about the assessment about how Earth would approach the Na'vi. Pandora's a 6 year trip away from Earth by the most advanced space craft, and the political situation on Earth is touchy, to the point that Selfridge said that the only thing that shareholders would dislike more than the bad PR of a Na'vi genocide would be bad quarterly reports. When the Venture Star leaves, it will take roughly 4 years (at light speed) or possibly the time to transmit a low bitrate message across a quantum comm system (if they do indeed have that FTL comm system) for a message about what happened at Pandora to reach back to Earth. If they have an FTL Comm system, they will likely wait for all 10 of their ships to return. That's 6 years right there. They then have to load all the ships with troops and their gear. It would take another 6 years after they finish to return to Pandora. 12 years minimum for revenge. This also ignores the politics of the situation.

It all depends on politics, and how important Unobtainium really is.

RE: Na'vi ST.

I used a different measure to guage Na'vi Strength, and came up with a higher number.

A Na'vi hunter, such as Tsu'tey, is strong enough to one-arm grab and throw a human solder.

A typical human weighs in about 150 to 200lbs. A TL9 soldier would expect to be outfitted with around 50lbs of gear, including rifle, rebreather mask, armor, survival knife, ammo clips, and so on. So, call him 225lbs. Tsu'tey is definitely one of the best hunters in the village (I'd say the only reason Sully won in hand to hand combat was it was Tsu'tey's brawling and knife skill versus Sully's Jujitsu derived Military Hand to Hand skills, and the Marine handily beat the tribal warrior...). To lift 225lbs without any FP cost one-armed fast enough to throw the human merc in the same turn, Tsu'tey would need an ST of 34. I then crosschecked that with the Na'vi bow's expected output. Treating a Na'vi bow as a long bow, the arrows would do 3d+4 damage for a hypothetical Na'vi with ST34. Average 14, max of 22. One of the two arrows Neytiri fired at the end of the final fight appeared to not fully penetrate. The other went clean through her target to make a clear indication that it penetrated. If we say the arrow head is made of armor piercing materials, but keep the impaling damage (thereby not making it a bodkin tip, but just a natural evolution of Na'vi weapon making technology given that everything there seemed to have carbon fiber reinforced bodies...), then we could see that works if her foe was wearing a reflex tacsuit (I won't spoil with who she shot down in cold blood, but let's just say he had it coming to him. ;) ). Therefor, my Na'vi template has ST30. Na'vi 'civilians' would possibly have ST lower than this (definitely children and whatnot), and a handful of Na'vi, such as Neytiri and Tsu'tey, would have ST higher. THis also goes well with the combat walkers, who have an ST of +20 (which I houserule in Avatar to be a flat ST of 30 'robotic' -- i.e. No extra effort), as it seemed that Jake Sully was able to go toe to toe with an AMP suit in melee combat.

The Tsalayhu can be modeled as Telecommunication (Cable Jack). I added Sensie (+80%), and shoehorned "Racial" into "Requires Queue", at -20%, which limits it to Pa'li (direhorses) and Ikran (banshees/dragon birds) typically. Rarely, a Turok (Great Leonoptrix/giant dragon bird) will allow a Na'vi to ride it, and again, the Tsalayhu is made there. Finally, Palulukan (thanators/big death lizard-pumas) appear to be able to be bonded to as well.

I finally added Catfall, Damage Resistance 12 (Vitals and Skull only), Enhansed Move (Ground)/1, Extra Arm/1 (Flexible, weak) to represent the tail, and Parabolic Hearing. I also added Brachiator and Perfect Balance, though those could be a mixture of inate ability and training. I found it works for my campaign, and allows the feats that I saw in the movie to happen.