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Old 01-03-2023, 07:14 AM   #1
coronatiger
 
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Default Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

Some advantages, either in Characters, various supplements or homebrew, can be recreated by taking another advantage and adding limitations to it, and in fact I suspect that many were actually first created this way. An example is Elastic Skin, which can be represented by Shapeshifting (Morph) + Cosmetic and a few other limitations.

Ordinarily, you can add any number of limitations to an advantage, but the discount never exceeds -80%. However, in a pair of advantages where one is equal to the other plus some limitations, it's possible to get a discount lower than -80%.

Example: Advantage A costs [100]. Advantage B is A with -80% worth of limitations, making it cost [20]. Now, a player might want to add another limitation to further reduce the cost of the advantage. If they take advantage A (with the limitations making it essentially equal to B), the last limitation won't reduce the cost any further, but if they take advantage B instead, they can potentially reduce the cost to [4].

Obviously, players should be allowed to take the smaller advantage and add some limitations to it. Otherwise, it would say in the description of Elastic Skin & co that these advantages can't have limitations.

GURPS allows players to suggest new advantages, and with their GMs' approval, they can buy those advantages for their characters. And there is no rule that stops them from taking limitations on player-suggested advantages.

Let's say a player goes to their GM with this proposal: "I would like to buy this new advantage I've made. It's called X and works like this other advantage, only with these limitations. And by the way, I would like to add these other limitations to X, to make it cheaper." If the value of the limitations is big enough, the player can get around the discount limit of -80%. If the GM says no because the player clearly is trying to exploit a loophole, they can point to another player and say "But why did you allow them to take limitations to Elastic Skin?"

In my opinion, the discount limit should be removed altogether. Players get what they pay for, so if they really want this incredibly powerful ability [1000] that only works on middle-aged, red-haired Catholic women during the midnight hour on February 29th [-99%], I say by all means, let them have it. (Unless of course the campaign is a one-shot, set on that specific date, with the villains of the story being the Nuns of the Ginger Order, but you get my point.)

What do you think? Do we need this discount limit? Why or why not? Do you already ignore it, and if so, has anything broken?
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Old 01-03-2023, 07:21 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

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Originally Posted by coronatiger View Post
What do you think? Do we need this discount limit? Why or why not? Do you already ignore it, and if so, has anything broken?
We need something that makes it so that -120% in limitations still has a positive cost, rather than being a disadvantage. And it needs to kick in before we hit a point of extreme returns where adding a -10% limitation halves the cost of the ability.



The scheme I favor is picking a breakpoint where we start applying the limitations again. So if you have -120% in limitations on morph [100], and our breakpoint is -80% you apply the first -80%, and then apply the remaining -40%, for a total cost of [12]. -80% is the easiest breakpoint to sell on this, but I think -50% is a better number... but that makes some existing stuff cost more, which is a pain for players, and some existing stuff cost differently, which is a pain for everyone.
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Old 01-03-2023, 07:26 AM   #3
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

See "Below the Limit", GURPS Power-Ups 8: Limitations, p.7:

"However, sometimes an advantage is so extremely
limited that it becomes hard to justify charging even
20%. In such a case, remember that the GM always has
the right to set a new cost for this ability by fiat!
"


Also, kind of tangential to the question, I have allowed Cosmic (Rule Exemption) +50% to permit a trait to have more than -80% net limitations.
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Old 01-03-2023, 07:53 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

You've got a few options, here. One is to simply get rid of the cap, but treat anything with a net -100% or more of Limitations as simply costing [1] (much as a heavily-limited Disadvantage can just be a Quirk); note in some cases this can generate perverse incentives (if it's an attack power, once you hit -100% you may well want to boost the damage as high as the campaign allows, as something that does 1 damage and something that does 1 million damage each simply cost [1]). Another, as ericthered suggested, is to apply the Limitations linearly down to some point, such as -80%, then set that new cost as the base cost and apply the remainder of the Limitation value to that, repeating every -80% as needed. Something a bit out of left field I've previously suggested is to allow the character to essentially take a related Advantage (or a few of them) as an Enhancement to buy off the Limitations - if you have -120% worth of Limitations on Flight, you could take up to +40% in Enhancements to get back up to the cap of -80%; +40% of Enhancements on Flight would normally cost [16], so maybe get a "free" half level of Enhanced Air Move [10] and perhaps Crushing Striker (Dual +20%) [6], the latter representing the wings (or if you lack wings, maybe a knockback-only air jet to represent the backwash from your Flight).

Another option would be Multiplicative Modifiers on Steroids, where you replace all +n% modifiers with x(1+n/100). So instead of having a +50% Enhancement and three -50% Limitations (net -100%), you instead have x1.5, x0.5, x0.5, and x0.5; altogether, that's x0.1875, or -81.25%. MMoS will screw up a lot of pricing, however, so probably not a great idea.


Personally, my inclination would either be ericthered's suggestion or my "Advantages as Enhancements" option. Maybe both - the player can choose which to use (my suggestion is the more lenient, as you basically get the full discount but take it in the form of other Advantages, but won't necessarily fit the character concept - or you may wind up with a situation where there are no supporting Advantages that could be justified as Enhancements). I'd go with a cap of -80%, for the same reasons ericthered suggests.
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Old 01-03-2023, 08:44 AM   #5
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You've got a few options, here. One is to simply get rid of the cap, but treat anything with a net -100% or more of Limitations as simply costing [1] (much as a heavily-limited Disadvantage can just be a Quirk); note in some cases this can generate perverse incentives (if it's an attack power, once you hit -100% you may well want to boost the damage as high as the campaign allows, as something that does 1 damage and something that does 1 million damage each simply cost [1]).
Just about anything with uncapped levels can get fairly gross if allowed to utilize this homebrew rule. It's not one I'd let players just use without heavy scrutiny.
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Old 01-03-2023, 10:09 AM   #6
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Concerning the limitation discount limit of -80%

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Originally Posted by coronatiger View Post
Some advantages, either in Characters, various supplements or homebrew, can be recreated by taking another advantage and adding limitations to it, and in fact I suspect that many were actually first created this way. An example is Elastic Skin, which can be represented by Shapeshifting (Morph) + Cosmetic and a few other limitations.
Elastic Skin is older than the 4e form of Shapeshifting. Either Shapeshifting was priced to be compatible with Elastic Skin or it's a happy accident.

The Powers system is a comparative latecomer to Gurps and is a sort of cherry-on-top thing rather than a foundation of everything else.
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