step combined with dodge and drop or no?

[cupbearer]

hi

game states you can either dodge and drop against a ranged attack (i assume movement is 0 you just drop) or you can dive for cover against an area attack, which allows 1 yard of movement.

why the discrepancy? am i reading this right? wouldn't it be more consistent to allow you to make a move with either option?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

hi

game states you can either dodge and drop against a ranged attack (i assume movement is 0 you just drop) or you can dive for cover against an area attack, which allows 1 yard of movement.

why the discrepancy? am i reading this right? wouldn't it be more consistent to allow you to make a move with either option?

I think it's actually take a Step with Dive for Cover. It's just that only superhuman characters have a Step of more than one.

As for Dodge and Drop a normal "Step" might not be mentioned as it probably would not impact the Maneuver. If a Step would take you behind something it's a Dive for Cover.

In any event we're discussing Active Defenses and a Step only is the norm. There is no Move and Parry option that I'm aware of (with the possible exception of Extra Effort).

[mlangsdorf]

GURPS 4e sometimes provides specialized cases of specific rules to handle specific situations without noting that you still have the generalized ability.

Once per turn, if you can defend and are standing, you can make a retreat like movement. That movement is a single Step in any direction. As part of that movement, you can also drop prone.

Against a melee attack, moving away from your attacker is a Retreat and gives +3 to Dodge and +1 to other defenses. Moving neither closer to or farther from your attacker is a sidestep and gives +2 to Dodge and +0 to other defenses. Moving closer to your attacker is a Slip and gives +1 to Dodge and -1 to other defenses. Dropping prone of Diving has the effects of a Sidestep (though you can perform it while kneeling). All of that is covered in Martial Arts.

Against a ranged attack, dropping prone has the same effects as a Retreat. Other retreat like movements have no effect. The rules in Basic assume there's no tactical benefit to dropping prone in a different hex than the one you were standing in, so they don't cover that movement possibility because it has no mechanical effect. But you can dive for cover against a ranged attack.

Against an area attack, you often need to defend against the initial area or explosive attack, so moving away from the center of the attack is often helpful. Area attacks often involve shrapnel, and the rules in Basic assume they always will, and dropping prone is a useful defense against shrapnel. So the rules in Basic assume that retreat like movements against an area attack will be a dive and drop to cover, but Kromm has clarified that the drop is optional, and DFRPG makes this explicit (Fighting p 50).

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I think it's actually take a Step with Dive for Cover. It's just that only superhuman characters have a Step of more than one.

As for Dodge and Drop a normal "Step" might not be mentioned as it probably would not impact the Maneuver. If a Step would take you behind something it's a Dive for Cover.

In any event we're discussing Active Defenses and a Step only is the norm. There is no Move and Parry option that I'm aware of (with the possible exception of Extra Effort).

so you're saying i could drop and move 1 yard?

awesome!

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

GURPS 4e sometimes provides specialized cases of specific rules to handle specific situations without noting that you still have the generalized ability.

Once per turn, if you can defend and are standing, you can make a retreat like movement. That movement is a single Step in any direction. As part of that movement, you can also drop prone.

Against a melee attack, moving away from your attacker is a Retreat and gives +3 to Dodge and +1 to other defenses. Moving neither closer to or farther from your attacker is a sidestep and gives +2 to Dodge and +0 to other defenses. Moving closer to your attacker is a Slip and gives +1 to Dodge and -1 to other defenses. Dropping prone of Diving has the effects of a Sidestep (though you can perform it while kneeling). All of that is covered in Martial Arts.

Against a ranged attack, dropping prone has the same effects as a Retreat. Other retreat like movements have no effect. The rules in Basic assume there's no tactical benefit to dropping prone in a different hex than the one you were standing in, so they don't cover that movement possibility because it has no mechanical effect. But you can dive for cover against a ranged attack.

Against an area attack, you often need to defend against the initial area or explosive attack, so moving away from the center of the attack is often helpful. Area attacks often involve shrapnel, and the rules in Basic assume they always will, and dropping prone is a useful defense against shrapnel. So the rules in Basic assume that retreat like movements against an area attack will be a dive and drop to cover, but Kromm has clarified that the drop is optional, and DFRPG makes this explicit (Fighting p 50).

I realize there is less utility, but what if i want to dodge and drop , into adjacent hex just because?

thanks.

[mlangsdorf]

Diving for cover is an option for Dodge and Drop. As written, it only applies to explosive, area, or cone attacks. I believe that is an oversight, and you can dive for cover against any attack - but you only get the normal benefits of a Dodge and Drop against melee or ranged attacks. Still, if you're Dodging and Dropping during a combat, diving for cover against the first attacker may make it harder for subsequent attackers to hit you.

Even if my ruling isn't RAW, Rule 0 of GURPS is to adjust the rules to suit your table.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

I realize there is less utility, but what if i want to dodge and drop , into adjacent hex just because?

thanks.

Yep - go for it. Unless you're immobilised for some reason, of course.

[RGTraynor]

The one caveat I'd use for the notion at my own table is this. When you drop in place, or throw yourself down in your direct forward hex, you're doing so under a modicum of control. Throwing yourself flat in any other hex, you're really not, and like as not you're sprawling. I would take that into consideration for any subsequent actions or defense (or necessary position changes) in the next round.

[Lovewyrm]

I consider moving part of dodging ranged attacks, otherwise the ranged combat rules don't make much sense to me.

I once explained it via a narrow hallway with a slit in the bottom where a completely invincible goblin shoots a one hit kill laser beam out of every 3 seconds, and if dodging were the only means of not being hit by ranged attacks then every character who has to pass would have to stand on top of the slit, look down (to see the goblin/gun) and then dodge out of the way, which of course, is silly, but many people see dodge truly as the only defense against ranged attacks.

Meanwhile, the range and speed table has the speed part for that reason (I'd say.)

But that also has a weakness, if you get shot after you moved, what really is your velocity?
Unless the ranged attacker interrupts a characters movement with a wait, that character usually is considered stationary at the end of the move.

I allow anyone who is knowingly under ranged fire to declare that they did not stop on that hex, but it's merely the distance they can run that turn. They are still in motion.

This adds the speed penalty to the enemy shots, but also turns the attack of a next move into a move and attack.

Other than that, I treat dives as a move of 1 hex, from standing, this adds nothing.
But if done at the end of a move, carries over the speed of the character, may it be a sprint or the regular walk/jog.

[Pursuivant]

The virtue of Diving for Cover against non-area attacks is that it allows you to dive behind cover in adjacent hexes. That saves a turn vs. Dodge & Drop and Move (at a crawl) to an adjacent covered hex.