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Old 05-19-2012, 06:18 PM   #11
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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You know I never thought of that. I would have to say no, not as such. I suppose someone who is recorded in the computer as being "hamstrung" would have to kneel down for the rest of the fight. Or if it was a real duel instead of a sporting match, they would have to stoically stand still while the umpire or the opponent's second hamstrung them.
Of course in that case, there would really be no point in wearing one for a real duel. It was intended as a sporting contrivance anyway.

Alternatives are a scoresuit rigged with a pain inducer of some sort for real dueling.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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Alternatives are a scoresuit rigged with a pain inducer of some sort for real dueling.
They could be wearing powersuits that "lock up" the "damaged" limb, like at the battle school from Ender's Game.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

Slugthrowers in 0 gravity can be a problem. :)

Did you mean Space as a SF setting instead of virtually infinite void?

To be serios for the moment, you need to figure out what brought dueling back. Tech improvements helped make it obsolete a century or more ago. Why should 35th century FTL enabled people find it acceptable?
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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They could be wearing powersuits that "lock up" the "damaged" limb, like at the battle school from Ender's Game.
Yeah that was the kind of thing I was imagining

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Slugthrowers in 0 gravity can be a problem. :)

Did you mean Space as a SF setting instead of virtually infinite void?

To be serios for the moment, you need to figure out what brought dueling back. Tech improvements helped make it obsolete a century or more ago. Why should 35th century FTL enabled people find it acceptable?
Slugthrowers in zero g are quite useful. Note that it's in spaaaaaaace! not in space. Space doesn't necessarily mean zero g and duelling with slugthrowers isn't the only or even the default means of duelling.

Err how did technological improvements make duelling obsolete? Duelling isn't obsolete in any technical sense, society just changed it's opinion in regard to it.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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Err how did technological improvements make duelling obsolete? Duelling isn't obsolete in any technical sense, society just changed it's opinion in regard to it.
I think he's referring to how lethal it is to duel with pistols, once pistols become accurate enough to kill a man consistently at 20 paces. Early pistols made acceptable dueling weapons because hitting at that range was largely a matter of luck.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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I think he's referring to how lethal it is to duel with pistols, once pistols become accurate enough to kill a man consistently at 20 paces. Early pistols made acceptable dueling weapons because hitting at that range was largely a matter of luck.
Ahh I see. Like I said above though, pistol duels are by no means the only kind of duel. If people want to duel then they will use appropriate weapons and restrictions to bring the lethality to the desired level.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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I think he's referring to how lethal it is to duel with pistols, once pistols become accurate enough to kill a man consistently at 20 paces. Early pistols made acceptable dueling weapons because hitting at that range was largely a matter of luck.
But people didn't necessarily used state of the art precise pistols (i.e. rifled) to duel.
They did use state of the art reliable pistols though. Real duel pistols (as opposed to "auctioneer duel pistols" i.e. any two pistols in a box) have low Acc but high Malf for their TL.

We know in exhaustive detail how European pre-WW1 duels worked, because there are several published "duel codes" which codified the rules. One of them for German speaking Europe is the "Duell=Codex" of Gustav Hergsell from 1891. Which is the basis for my following remarks.

The reason for fighting duels wasn't to kill or injure the other man, but to show that you were willing to risk life and limb for your convictions or honor.
The risk assumed (by weapon and by "mode") should be proportional to the disagreement.

On page 144 Hergsell writes that rifled pistols are permissible for duels "despite common thought," but that they should only be used in the case of the "most grievous insults."
He also explains that it isn't dishonorable for the referee or the seconds and witnesses to argue for smooth bore pistols.

My point is that the risk isn't determined by the available technology ("once pistols become accurate enough"), but by the rules set by society.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

Three examples: Dune, Firefly (the "Shindig" episode), and Babylon 5 ("Knives", where Londo duels the head of another Centari house—long story; won't go into it)—all blades. In the Firefly example, though, I can totally see a standard "Old West" shootout-duel as well—if it's lasers, I don't think it would change anything.

Last edited by Gigermann; 05-19-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

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But people didn't necessarily used state of the art precise pistols (i.e. rifled) to duel.
They did use state of the art reliable pistols though. Real duel pistols (as opposed to "auctioneer duel pistols" i.e. any two pistols in a box) have low Acc but high Malf for their TL.

We know in exhaustive detail how European pre-WW1 duels worked, because there are several published "duel codes" which codified the rules. One of them for German speaking Europe is the "Duell=Codex" of Gustav Hergsell from 1891. Which is the basis for my following remarks.

The reason for fighting duels wasn't to kill or injure the other man, but to show that you were willing to risk life and limb for your convictions or honor.
The risk assumed (by weapon and by "mode") should be proportional to the disagreement.

On page 144 Hergsell writes that rifled pistols are permissible for duels "despite common thought," but that they should only be used in the case of the "most grievous insults."
He also explains that it isn't dishonorable for the referee or the seconds and witnesses to argue for smooth bore pistols.

My point is that the risk isn't determined by the available technology ("once pistols become accurate enough"), but by the rules set by society.
There was some attention paid toward accuracy with duelling pistols although I suspect that was for uniformity of accuracy. Yeah people don't need to fight duels with the deadliest weapons available.

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Three examples: Dune, Firefly (the "Shindig" episode), and Babylon 5 ("Knives", where Londo duels the head of another Centari house—long story; won't go into it)—all blades. In the Firefly example, though, I can totally see a standard "Old West" shootout-duel as well—if it's lasers, I don't think it would change anything.
The Minbari also duel with their "fighting pikes". Those aren't blades though.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Duelling in Spaaaaaaace!

I'd argue that dueling never went all the way away, anyway. It's just today (in the U.S. at least), the weapons of choice are lawyers and PR flaks.

The shifts that reduced dueling aren't technological,they're social: a feeling that dueling is "might makes right", that non-combatants are entitled to have their cases heard, the rise of the criminal and civil justice systems, expanded police powers and capabilities, the spread of egalitarianism and the fracturing of 'society', a reduced expectation that the members of high society are necessarily trained combatants, and so on...

Which is why the examples from my space campaign are almost all military. Dueling is a way of showing off military prowess, and that's more valued in militarized cultures. Even today, U.S. Marines have a reputation for fistfights as a means of resolving disputes, an activity that isn't condoned by the the chain of command, but not quite entirely condemned, either. (One PFC my acquaintance was told off the record by his master sergeant that worse than being involved in a bar fight with rangers was being involved in a bar fight with rangers and losing. But both were better than failing to defend the honor of the USMC.)
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