Different TLs in different fields

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

The zerg have ship-design skills too, but those are bio-ships, and so on.

Zerg also rely in 'minerals' to create their basic units.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Zerg also rely in 'minerals' to create their basic units.

That would be "game mechanics" that doesnt exactly translate perfectly into the lore.

In the lore, the zerg use those "minerals" and the "vespine gas" for their metabolical processes... It would be akin to plants absorbing minerals from the ground. They dont use those to build to make metal alloys as the terrans do or to create the "psy-matrixes" crystals of the protoss tech; for the lore it's as if they "diggested" those minerals into their organisms.

Anyway, the thing with minerals is a game mechanic, how it would work "in real life" is that they spread microorganisms in the ground that "decompose" the soil into "zerg-organic-matter", creating what is called the "Creep", which is organic soil heavy with zerg-biomatter, and all organisms and biostructures of the Zerg feed themselves from that "Creep" in a symbiotic relation.

Even the game campaigns lean towards that; when you're facing Zergs in campaigns, most often their bases have no minerals or vespene gas (because they are pre generated for the campaigns), and most obvious they sustain themselves from the Creep directly.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That's like saying we are TL 8 in Materials, but TL 0 everywhere else. Yes, the Zerg use a type of bioengineering for all of their stuff, but they require being advanced in more fields than just biotechnology to do all that.

But we are not TL 8 in Materials alone. We have TL 8 in Medicine, in transportation, in energy, in computers. In several other fields.

The Zerg have TL 12 in several fields related to Biotech or that directly use Biotech as a source - so yes, they DO have TL12 in materials, their bio-materials are TL12 all over. Their medicine is regenerative medicine - everything Zerg has VERY fast natural regeneration. They dont really care about more than that thou (they dont care about really applying extensive medical care to anything besides their regeneration), so it's more like supressed tech than lack of it. They dont truly have "agriculture" since they feed from the "Creep" formed by symbiotic bacteria-like organisms - that by itself could be considered TL12 food.

Transportation is also TL12, they have the "Leviathans" massive worm-like bugs capable of flight and FTL travel.

It could be said they have TL12 "bio-computers", with their Cerebrates, Overmind and later on the Broodmothers and Queens and Overlords.

However, for energy they are TL 0. They have no fuel source or energy generation aside from the chemistry of their organisms, even thou they certanly understand the concepts of energy.

Originally Posted by Varyon

But we're not talking about what technology a society has made, we're talking about what their TL is. Crop rotation, germ theory, etc are all part of TL, so regardless of how you opt to define "technology," knowledge is a part of TL.

TL = Technological Level. If you have a TL 0+10 Shamanistic society whose only knowledge is to summon spirits that gifts them a bunch of magical stuff enough for them to colonize space using "fetish vessels", they are still TL10 equivalent nonetheless.

Our TL 8 society have a diverse body of knowledge proper to a TL 8 society because that's what's required to have the technology that we have, but TL level is a measurement of the technologies being used by said society, not necessarily the knowledge possessed.

Dolphins for example could be great mathmaticians, philosophers, poets and astronomers (and I have colleagues that truly believe that whales are refined poets-bards of the oceans, since they can communicate from anywhere in the planet - there are ecologists that truly believe they sing epic ballads to one another from up to the other side of the globe), but they'll never be engineers and will never be able to move past TL -1, no matter how knowledgeable they are.

[David Johnston2]

The Zerg are more accurately depicted as TL 0+12. They are just as advanced as their rivals but differently. It's not the same thing as the stereotypical warrior race that never bothers to invent medicine because the weak deserve to die or the alternate Earth that never invents the internal combustion engine or plastics because aliens stole all their easily extracted petrochemicals a hundred thousand years ago. but still has electric lights and computers.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

But we are not TL 8 in Materials alone. We have TL 8 in Medicine, in transportation, in energy, in computers. In several other fields.

All of which are reliant on our materials technology, in largely the same way the Zerg are reliant on their biological technology. Which is my point - the Zerg are advanced in a variety of fields, it's just that all of their technology is basically grown from themselves. rather than crafted from metal, wood, plastic, ceramics, etc. That doesn't make them TL 12 (or whatever - it's hard to really assign a numerical TL to a setting that is so inundated with superscience, psionics, etc) in biotech exclusively.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

TL = Technological Level. If you have a TL 0+10 Shamanistic society whose only knowledge is to summon spirits that gifts them a bunch of magical stuff enough for them to colonize space using "fetish vessels", they are still TL10 equivalent nonetheless.

Well, yes. That's kinda what I was saying. Knowledge is an integral part of TL - it's not just "Here are the toys we have access to."

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by YankeeGamer

The result, as of 1878, is telescope technology improving, but computational technology is approaching TL 5+1--mechanical computers. Also, other areas are pushing the edge of early TL 6--people are experimenting with rockets, with the long term goal of being able to go Up There and do something about an incoming rock, once the astronomers have found and computed its course.

Useful things for that which already exist, or are due in a few years:

• Kerosene refining is already underway.
• Liquid oxygen, 1883.
• Practical aluminium production, 1886.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by weby

Early TL 8.. maybe.. a bit of stretch but it is possible to do most of TL 7 tech (not efficient turbines) without computational fluid dynamics and a lot of TL 8 tech.

There could also be biological or cultural reasons why a particular line of technological development was never pursued.

Repressive governments or culturally conservative societies might restrict or prohibit development of certain technologies. ("If the Sky Gods wanted us to fly they would give us a sign.")

Biologically, a particularly massive or pressure sensitive species, or an aquatic species with limited ability to survive in air, might not be able to handle the life support requirements for crewed early TL6 flight. They might have flight technology, but it's more likely to take the form of drones or large lighter than air craft.

Once you start looking at non-human/non-humanoid societies certain types of technologies become easier or harder, like Starcraft's Zerg referenced in a previous post. Their biology and culture makes it extremely easy for them to excel in biotech and related fields, but much harder to advance in other areas of technology (e.g., games, alternate social systems, or any technology which requires individual initiative rather than group action).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

However, without fire, there's no metallurgy.

Except for naturally-occurring areas of pure metals which don't oxidize easily. This is one of the reasons that an exclusively aquatic species would have difficulty advancing in certain critical areas of TL.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

We do have people and societies irl that live all the way up to TL0 as we speak

The difference being that many of those TL0 people are aware of outsiders with much higher TL and could possibly acquire higher TL skills. Unless they deliberately reject contact with the outside world (e.g., the Sentinalese), people from nominally TL0 cultures in a TL8 world often learn higher TL skills (e.g., a San or Yanomami tribesman learning to shoot a rifle or drive a jeep).

What makes them distinct isn't just TL, but the fact that members of such groups retain the traditional skills needed to survive in their native habitat: Area Knowledge, Naturalist, Stealth, Survival, and Tracking.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Except for naturally-occurring areas of pure metals which don't oxidize easily. This is one of the reasons that an exclusively aquatic species would have difficulty advancing in certain critical areas of TL.

Some of those purposes can probably be replaced by electricity, which does have some biological sources, but it does seem like a hard path to follow.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The Zerg are more accurately depicted as TL 0+12. They are just as advanced as their rivals but differently. It's not the same thing as the stereotypical warrior race that never bothers to invent medicine because the weak deserve to die or the alternate Earth that never invents the internal combustion engine or plastics because aliens stole all their easily extracted petrochemicals a hundred thousand years ago. but still has electric lights and computers.

Oh yes, that's true, it's alternative tech rather than single field TL, indeed. I stand corrected.

I think just energy they dont have it thou