[Powers] How fast is Reflexive?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Reflexive on anything that is not a sense acts as 1 level of enhanced time sense.

Reduced Time, not ETS. Also, rather than "not a sense", Powers 109 says the RT applies "when you use your ability consciously" (that is, not Reflexively).

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Seems extremely dumb to bother with reflexive on a defensive trait if it doesn't protect you from the attack

I think the debate here isn't about the speed of Reflexive, but whether or not you're aware of the attack.

Nereidabel seems to be interpreting the wording

Originally Posted by Powers 109

{Reflexive} lets your ability switch itself on – under attack if a defense

to mean that Reflexive is indeed fast enough to protect you from the first attack -- as you long as you know that you actually are under attack. His statement "... and is unaware of the attack, the DR activates immediately after the first hit" assumes that the hit itself makes you aware of the attack, so Reflexive kicks in then, too late to save you from the surprise hit. Reflexive, alone, doesn't automatically make you aware of all attacks before they happen. If you were aware of the attack, then the defense is available.

The alternative interpretation would seem to be that Reflexive also somehow makes you aware of any and all attacks so that your defense activates. This interpretation might seem to tread on the turf of Danger Sense. (1 point of Reflexive DR makes you aware of all attacks, negating surprise?)

RAWly speaking, I'd disagree with his statement that when you are aware, you treat activation as a Power Dodge. Power Dodge is specifically for Reflexive movement and transformation abilities being used as a Dodge. (Blink, Morph out of the path of the attack, etc.) DR isn't a way to Dodge. The ability in the OP would just fall under the main Reflexive rule:

Originally Posted by Powers 109

If {activation} normally requires a success roll, activation requires a roll at -4; otherwise, it’s automatic.

The rest of the debate is about senses -- the normal ones, or other detection-type abilities with Reflexive to make them act in the unconscious and automatic manner of senses -- to make you aware of the attack.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Reduced

I think the debate here isn't about the speed of Reflexive, but whether or not you're aware of the attack.

to my mind Reflexive just lets you take an action that requires a ready maneuver and make it a Free Action, even an usubconscious one. Applied to Senses it is very handy.
Applied to defenses it can indeed let you turn them on in time to affect an attack your aware of, provided no other time limits apply.
However I see no reason to say it allows this to work against surprise attacks.
take Cosmic )Power Ups 4 p7 on your Active Defenses for that.

[Figleaf23]

Reflexive:

"... lets your ability switch itself on –
under attack if a defense, in the presence
of something “interesting” if a
sense – without a Ready or
Concentrate maneuver. ...
If you’re asleep, successful
activation also wakes you up."

Clearly, the character is not expected to be aware of attacks when asleep, therefore the rule contemplates Reflexive things activating independently of the character's perception.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Reflexive:

"... lets your ability switch itself on –
under attack if a defense, in the presence
of something “interesting” if a
sense – without a Ready or
Concentrate maneuver. ...
If you’re asleep, successful
activation also wakes you up."

Clearly, the character is not expected to be aware of attacks when asleep, therefore the rule contemplates Reflexive things activating independently of the character's perception.

My conclusion was that primarily refers to the use of Reflexive on Senses. If you have Reflexive Detect Magnetism, then EMPs wake you up as your Detect activates. If someone hits you while you are asleep, then your defence activated before they can hit you again but being hit is enough to wake you up anyway.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

My conclusion was that primarily refers to the use of Reflexive on Senses. If you have Reflexive Detect Magnetism, then EMPs wake you up as your Detect activates. If someone hits you while you are asleep, then your defence activated before they can hit you again but being hit is enough to wake you up anyway.

I've read it a couple of times again, and I can't see anything in the text that suggests that defenses and senses are to be treated differently.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I've read it a couple of times again, and I can't see anything in the text that suggests that defenses and senses are to be treated differently.

They aren't being treated differently. In both cases the ability activates a second after being triggered by the totally unexpected stimulus. It's just that you're going to wake up from being struck anyway, if it wasn't immediately incapacitating. I don't much like the idea of the power precognitively anticipating that something is about to happen.

[Figleaf23]

The syntax does not support the distinction you are trying to make.

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Clearly, the character is not expected to be aware of attacks when asleep, therefore the rule contemplates Reflexive things activating independently of the character's perception.

This has been my interpretation on it as well. When I first read it I instantly thought of One Piece's logia users, who can transform into an specific substance, and experienced users instantly transform upon being attacked, whether they knew of the attack or not.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I've read it a couple of times again, and I can't see anything in the text that suggests that defenses and senses are to be treated differently.

Senses are automatic. Powers are treated as one level of reduced time. That's already different treatment.

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Senses are automatic. Powers are treated as one level of reduced time. That's already different treatment.

Reflexive counts as a level of
Reduced Time when you use your
ability consciously.

emphasis mine.
It never says powers have reduced time when used consciously, it never says senses don't. The conscious use of an ability with reflexive has a level of reduced time. No different treatment.