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Old 10-20-2007, 10:46 PM   #1
Icelander
 
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Default The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

A few months ago, I posted a thread with various house-rules for a combat heavy Low-Tech campaign. With the arrival of Martial Arts, these rules are outdated and often obsolete. Nevertheless, some concerns were not addressed there and await the release of CCoI. Until that happy day, I present my MA-compatible house rules, starting with a simplified system for modifying armour protection versus differing attack types.

I divide each class of hand weapon damage into sub-categories and armour may have specific strength or weaknesses against each of these categories. Just find the weapon used and check the armour table to see if any notes apply.

Weapon Categories

Crushing weapons

Crushing (cr) ___Normal rules in all respects.

Backsword (hilt punch); Baton; Blackjack or Sap; Blunt Arrows; Blunt Teeth; Bokken; Bola Perdida; Bolas; Boomerang; Brass Knucles; Cestus; Chain Whip; Combat Fan; Discus; Dusack; Eku; Gada (round); Hook Sword; Jo; Jutte; Kick; Kick w/boots; Knobbed Club; Kusari; Kusarigama; Kusarijutte; Life Preserver; Light Club; Long Staff; Maul (square); Mensurschläger (hilt punch); Morningstar (round or spiked); Myrmex; Nunchaku; Quarterstaff; Punch; Rope Dart; Round Mace; Sai; Sap Glove; Shield Bash; Shield Bash w/spike; Short Baton; Short Staff; Small Round Mace; Soderagami; Tetsubo (round); Three-Part Staff; Throwing Stick; Tonfa; Urumi; Weighted Scarf; Whip.

In addition, any normally cut or imp weapon converted to crushing usually becomes cr, such as swords without sharp tips for stabbing. The same applies to hammer heads added to weapons if they are round or square.

Focused crushing (cr+) ___Enhanced armour penetration
Gada (flanged); Mace; Maul (beveled or flanged); Morningstar (flanged); Small Mace; Tetsubo (beveled or flanged).

In addition, any hammer head added to a weapon such as a polearm or axe/mace of some sort that is beveled or otherwise made to focus the force of the blow counts as cr+.

Cutting weapons

Slicing/Draw Cut (cut-) ___Inferior effects against armour
Balisong; Bill (hook); Bladed Hand; Bowel Raker Arrow; Cavalry Saber; Combat Fan; Deer Antlers; Duelling Bill (hook); Edged Rapier; Frog Crotch Arrow; Hook Sword (hilt punch or hook); Jian; Katana; Katar; Knife-Wheel; Large Katar; Large Knife; Late Katana; Light Edged Rapier; Long Knife; Main-Gauche; Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao (hilt punch); Sabre; Sharp Teeth (man-sized or smaller); Shortsword* (lighter); Shuriken; Sickle (hook); Slashing Wheel; Small Knife; Soderagami (hook); Straight Razor; Urumi; Willow Leaf.

In addition, Tip Slashes are always cut- attacks, except in the case of the Heavy Spear.

Cutting/Slashing (cut) ___Somewhat inferior against armour
Backsword; Bastard Sword; Broadsword; Cutlass; Dao; Falchion; Greatsword; Heavy Spear (tip slash); Hungamunga; Kukri; Kusarigama; Large Falchion; Large Hungamunga; Longsword; Mensurschläger; Naginata; Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao; Shortsword* (heavier); Sickle; Small Falchion; Thrusting Bastard Sword; Thrusting Broadsword; Thrusting Greatsword; Sharp Teeth (larger than man-sized).

Cutting (cut+) ___Standard cutting rules
Axe; Bill; Duelling Bill; Duelling Glaive; Duelling Halberd; Duelling Pollaxe; Greataxe; Glaive; Halberd; Hatchet; Heavy Horse-Cutter; Lajatang; Light Horse-Cutter; Monk's Spade; Poleaxe; Small Axe; Small Throwing Axe; Throwing Axe.

Impaling weapons

Weak Impaling (imp-) ___Armour Divisor (0.5)
Trident; Wooden Stake; Wood or Stone weapons.

Edged Impaling (imp) ___Normal imaling rules, slightly improved performance against some armour
Arrow; Backsword; Balisong; Bill; Bladed Hand; Cavalry Saber; Crossbow Bolt; Cutlass; Dagger; Dao; Dart; Dress Smallsword; Duelling Bill; Duelling Glaive; Duelling Halberd (thrust); Edged Rapier; Falchion; Fangs; Glaive; Halberd (thrust); Harpoon; Heavy Horse-Cutter; Heavy Spear; Javelin; Jian; Katana; Katar; Knife Wheel; Kukri; Lance; Large Falchion; Large Katar; Large Knife; Large Throwing Knife; Late Katana; Light Horse-Cutter; Light Edged Rapier; Light Rapier; Long Knife; Long Spear; Longsword; Main-Gauche; Naginata; Plumbata; Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao; Rapier; Rope Dart; Saber; Scythe; Short Spear; Shortsword; Sickle; Small Falchion; Small Knife; Smallsword; Small Throwing Knife; Spear; Thrusting Bastard Sword; Thrusting Broadsword; Thrusting Greatsword.

Narrow Impaling (imp+) ___Enhanced performance against armour, but only pi+ performance against flesh
Bodkin Arrow**; Duelling Halberd (swung); Estoc; Halberd (swung); Pick; Rondel Dagger; Sai; Stiletto; Warhammer.

At the GM's option, a cinematic campaign may include weapons of the above types which are so narrow-bladed as to have an Armour Divisor of 2 instead of using the rules for armour versus weapon type and behaves as a pi weapon against flesh.


Armour Table

Torso

Type
Notes

Thick Clothing***
[6]
Fur Loincloth
[6]
Fur Tunic
[6]
Bronze Breastplate
[5,7,9,12]
Bronze Corselet
[5,7,9,12]
Cloth Armour
[6,9]
Leather Armour
[7,9]
Leather Jacket
[6,9]
Light Scale Armour
[5,7,9,11,12]
Lorica Segmentata
[5,6,11,13]
Mail Hauberk
[7,9,12]
Mail Shirt
[7,9,12]
Scale Armour
[5,7,9,11,13]
Double Mail Hauberk
[8,10,12]
Heavy Steel Corselet
[5,8,10,13]
Steel Breastplate
[5,8,10,13]
Steel Corselet
[5,8,10,13]
Steel Laminate Plate
[5,8,10,13]
Buff Coat
[6,9,11]

Limb Armour

Type
Notes

Bronze Armbands
[5,6,12]
Bronze Greaves
[5,6,12]
Cloth Sleeves
[6,9]
Heavy Leather Leggings
[7,9]
Heavy Leather Sleeves
[7,9]
Leather Leggings
[6,9]
Leather Sleeves
[6,9]
Leather Pants
[6,9]
Studded Leather Skirt
[11,13]
Mail Leggings
[7,9,12]
Mail Sleeves
[7,9,12]
Scale Leggings
[5,7,9,11,13]
Scale Sleeves
[5,7,9,11,13]
Heavy Plate Arms
[5,8,10,13]
Heavy Plate Legs
[5,8,10,13]
Plate Arms
[5,8,10,13]
Plate Legs
[5,8,10,13]

Headgear

Type
Notes

Bronze Helmet
[5,6,12]
Bronze Pot-Helm
[5,6,12]
Cloth Cap
[6,9]
Leather Cap
[6,9]
Leather Helm
[7,9]
Legionary Helmet
[5,8,10,13]
Mail Coif
[7,9,13]
Barrel Helm
[5,8,10,13]
Face Mask
[5,8,10,13]
Greathelm
[5,8,10,13]
Pot-Helm
[5,8,10,13]

Gloves

Type
Notes

Cloth Gloves
[6,9]
Leather Gloves
[7,9]
Gauntlets
[5,8,10,13]
Heavy Gauntlets
[5,8,10,13]

Footwear

Type
Notes

Sandals

Shoes
[6,9]
Boots
[7,9]
Sollerets
[5,8,10,13]

Notes
[5] -1 to DR versus cr+
[6] +1 DR versus cut-
[7] +2 DR versus cut-
[8] +3 to DR versus cut-
[9] +1 to DR versus cut
[10] +2 to DR versus cut
[11] -1 to DR versus imp
[12] -1 to DR versus imp+
[13] -2 to DR versus imp+

Comments?

*Most shortswords are cut-, while unusually long or heavy versions, such as the Katzbalger and sica are considered cut weapons.
**Historical bodkin arrows are best simulated by a -2 (or -1/die) to basic damage, an Armour Divisor (2) and pi+ damage.
***DR 0, but enjoys a bonus against cut-
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Last edited by Icelander; 11-26-2008 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

I would allow fighters to change the damage type of cut-, cut, and cut+ weapons between those types at some penalty. Probably substract damage to move from cut- to cut and from cut to cut+. Anyone can attempt to chop with a slicing weapon, etc, but chances are it'll have less weight behind it.

[Edit: depending on the exact numbers, this might not make any difference with the armors you've given. But it might come up when either the armors or the weapons are scaled up, or if some of the new damage types have different damage multipliers when past armor.]

If there were some benefit to doing cut- instead of cut (etc.), which I don't think you're currently modelling, then I'd allow a fighter to move from cut+ to cut to cut- with a skill penalty. I.e. anyone can attempt to slice with a chopping weapon, but the difficulty increases.

Last edited by kenclary; 10-21-2007 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 02:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

Those fixed values don't scale well.
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Last edited by Luther; 10-21-2007 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 02:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
I would allow fighters to change the damage type of cut-, cut, and cut+ weapons between those types at some penalty. Probably substract damage to move from cut- to cut and from cut to cut+. Anyone can attempt to chop with a slicing weapon, etc, but chances are it'll have less weight behind it.
I'd call it a Technique at -2, only allowing for an upgrade of one level. Probably lower damage by 1 as well, making it not worthwhile except for draw-cutting weapons like the katana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
If there were some benefit to doing cut- instead of cut (etc.), which I don't think you're currently modelling, then I'd allow a fighter to move from cut+ to cut to cut- with a skill penalty. I.e. anyone can attempt to slice with a chopping weapon, but the difficulty increases.
Hmm... technically, that could be a justification for a cut which does a +1 damage to unarmoured people. As a Technique, it would be a -2 as above.
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Old 10-21-2007, 02:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Those fixed values don't scale well.
Armour DR is a fixed value as well.

Now, basically, it has a fixed value against different types of attacks.
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

I would be interested in knowing how Icelander would integrate these ideas with TBone's Edge Protection. I assume your houserules are built so no additional EP is necessary. Everything just gets sorted out with the DR.
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:23 AM   #7
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
I would be interested in knowing how Icelander would integrate these ideas with TBone's Edge Protection. I assume your houserules are built so no additional EP is necessary. Everything just gets sorted out with the DR.
Yeah, this sort of replaces Edge Protection. Not that I oppose EP, it's a fine idea and does a better job than these rules at dealing with Blunt Trauma.

What this is meant to do is be a pure optional add on to basic GURPS rules, not a new mechanic which alters BASIC SET stats. This is done in the vain hope that Kromm decides to improve upon it and insert something like it into the hypothetical GURPS Cabaret Chicks on Ice.

As for intergrating this with Edge Protection, I suppose it could be done. Keep the same groupings of melee weapons and tweak the armour types in their effect a bit.
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Old 10-22-2007, 03:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

For simplicity, it's good to be able to look up the effect a given attack has on a given armour quickly. The following table aids me in game-play, at least until I've memorised the rules completely.

-1 DR vs. cr+
Bronze Breastplate; Bronze Corselet; Light Scale Armour; Lorica Segmentata; Scale Armour; Heavy Steel Corselet; Steel Breastplate; Steel Corselet; Steel Laminate Plate; Bronze Armbands; Bronze Greaves; Scale Leggings; Scale Sleeves; Heavy Plate Arms; Heavy Plate Legs; Plate Arms; Plate Legs; Bronze Helmet; Bronze Pot-Helm; Legionary Helmet; Barrel Helm; Face Mask; Greathelm; Pot-Helm; Gauntlets; Heavy Gauntlets; Sollerets.

-1 DR vs. imp
Light Scale Armour; Lorica Segmentata; Scale Armour; Studded Leather Skirt; Scale Leggings; Scale Sleeves.

-1 DR vs. imp+
Bronze Breastplate; Bronze Corselet; Light Scale Armour; Mail Hauberk; Mail Shirt; Double Mail Hauberk; Bronze Armbands; Bronze Greaves; Mail Leggings; Mail Sleeves; Bronze Helmet; Bronze Pot-Helm.

-2 DR vs. imp+
Lorica Segmentata; Scale Armour; Heavy Steel Corselet; Steel Breastplate; Steel Corselet; Steel Laminate Plate; Studded Leather Skirt; Scale Leggings; Scale Sleeves; Heavy Plate Arms; Heavy Plate Legs; Plate Arms; Plate Legs; Legionary Helmet; Mail Coif; Barrel Helm; Face Mask; Greathelm; Pot-Helm; Gauntlets; Heavy Gauntlets; Sollerets.

+1 DR vs. cut-
Thick Clothing; Fur Loincloth; Fur Tunic; Cloth Armour; Leather Jacket; Lorica Segmentata; Buff Coat; Bronze Armbands; Bronze Greaves; Cloth Sleeves; Leather Leggings; Leather Sleeves; Leather Pants; Bronze Helmet; Bronze Pot-Helm; Cloth Cap; Leather Cap; Cloth Gloves; Shoes.

+2 DR vs. cut-
Bronze Breastplate; Bronze Corselet; Leather Armour; Light Scale Armour; Mail Hauberk; Mail Shirt; Scale Armour; Heavy Leather Leggings; Heavy Leather Sleeves; Mail Leggings; Mail Sleeves; Scale Leggings; Scale Sleeves; Leather Helm; Mail Coif; Leather Gloves; Boots.

+3 DR vs. cut-
Double Mail Hauberk; Heavy Steel Corselet; Steel Breastplate; Steel Corselet; Steel Laminate Plate; Heavy Plate Arms; Heavy Plate Legs; Plate Arms; Plate Legs; Legionary Helmet; Barrel Helm; Face Mask; Greathelm; Pot-Helm; Gauntlets; Heavy Gauntlets; Sollerets.

+1 DR vs. cut
Bronze Breastplate; Bronze Corselet; Cloth Armour; Leather Armour; Leather Jacket; Light Scale Armour; Mail Hauberk; Mail Shirt; Scale Armour; Buff Coat; Cloth Sleeves; Heavy Leather Leggings; Heavy Leather Sleeves; Leather Leggings; Leather Sleeves; Leather Pants; Mail Leggings; Mail Sleeves; Scale Leggings; Scale Sleeves; Cloth Cap; Leather Cap; Leather Helm; Mail Coif; Cloth Gloves; Leather Gloves; Shoes; Boots.

+2 DR vs. cut
Double Mail Hauberk; Heavy Steel Corselet; Steel Breastplate; Steel Corselet; Steel Laminate Plate; Heavy Plate Arms; Heavy Plate Legs; Plate Arms; Plate Legs; Legionary Helmet; Barrel Helm; Face Mask; Greathelm; Pot-Helm; Gauntlets; Heavy Gauntlets; Sollerets.
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Last edited by Icelander; 10-22-2007 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 10-22-2007, 04:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

For natural armour, I've found that these rules of thumb do fine for cases where the GM hasn't otherwise noted the armour of the creature to be different from normal DR in some way:

Flexible Natural DR (including Tough Skin)
Notes
DR 1
[6]
DR 2
[6,9]
DR 3
[5,7,9,12]

For every full 3 points of flexible DR over 3, add a +1 to DR against cut- and subtract a -1 DR against imp+. In addition to that, for every 6 full points of flexible DR over 3, add a +1 to DR against cut and subtract a -1 from DR against imp and cr+.

Rigid Natural DR
Notes
DR 1
[6,9]
DR 2
[7,9]
DR 3
[5,7,9]

For every 3 full points of natural DR over 3, add a +1 DR against cut- and subtract a -1 DR against imp+. In addition to that, for every 6 full points of natural DR over 3, add a +1 DR against cut and subtract -1 DR against cr+.
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Last edited by Icelander; 10-22-2007 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: The Point Always Beats the Edge Revisited and MA-compatible

If I were going to use it, I would have to make a table with my character's armour listed down one side and the damage types across the top. Then the cells would have +1, +2 or whatever in the cells.
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