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Old 02-21-2006, 09:35 AM   #41
joncarryer
 
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

So, when exactly is the last time that anyone actually read 3e Low Tech?

First of all, I disagree that it's a catalog of gadgets, and if the 4e equivalent is keeping all of the information that is present in 3e, I think there is already quite a lot of discussion regarding the infrastructure that supports the gadgets. If anything, I would like to see MORE space devoted to lists of equipment with prices and game stats. However, rather than putting them all in the last 10 pages, perhaps they could be separated out by TL and placed near the appropriate bits of text discussion in the relevant chapter.

Also, I found the discussion of technologies in each of the TL chapters to be overly attached to particular cultures, which is fine if that happens to be the culture you're interested in for that TL, but not so good otherwise. I suggest that the 4e book keep the format of having the four sections; one for each TL within the scope of the book, but broaden the discussion to talk about the achievements, abilities and limitations of each TL in more general terms, then somewhere in each section, include as large and exhaustive list as you can of times and places that fit this TL.

e.g. TL2 Scandinavia ??? AD - ??? AD
Roman Republic/Empire ??? BC - ??? AD
Central Europe (France and Germany) ??? AD - ??? AD
etc.

Or perhaps have only one chart/table, in a prominent location, with an entry for each cultural/geographic region, and a brief paragraph detailing its overall technological progress at various dates, and including notes about deviations from overall TL in specific areas. e.g. Scandinavia can generally be considered to be TL0 until about ??? BC, then TL1 until ???. The early Viking period (~400AD - 700AD) is mostly TL2, but definitely TL3 in the area of sea transport and possibly in some specific areas of arms and armour technology... etc.

This way, no matter what cultural inspiration the reader has in mind, they can identify with it and read the more general information through a lens that resonates with them. This also caters more to the reader that is more interested in Fantasy gaming than Historical gaming, as it allows them to more readily adapt the elements from each TL to an entirely fictional culture.

Then, at the end of each TL section, have about 10-15 pages devoted exclusively to Fantasy considerations and how myth and magic might affect the technology at this level, as well as lists of fantastic/magical gadgets that fit best with that TL, to supplement the more mundane items in the main part.

So, if you keep all of the supporting information that exists in 3e, but generalise it so that it is less culture-specific, increase the information on arms, armour, adventuring supplies, and transport, integrated with weights, prices and game stats throughout the book, and supplemented with game-relevant rules on customisation (especially with respect to melee weapons, armour and bows/crossbows), and tack on 10-15 pages of Fantasy-specific stuff at each TL, I think you should have more than enough to fill 240 pages.

In particular, expanding on game rules for smithing, armoury and bow-making, both in mundane and fantasy aspects, would be invaluable.

Finally, expanding the Job Table from the 3e version to be consistent with existing rules on wealth by TL, and including info on Cost of Living by TL, that would be great.

...

...

Yep, I think I'm about done.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:56 AM   #42
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Let me point out that what Fantasy Gear is to Low-Tech gear, Superscience is to Hard Science. But I assume no one wanted Ultra-Tech without the superscience part, right? So I can see Fantasy Gear fit right into Low Tech.

While I'm personally very interested in a gamer-friendly version of demographics and stuff, I think this is so important and massive it merits a book of its own, not just a chapter (or a text box) somewhere in a book. To those who can't wait at all, there are a few tidbits in Infinite Worlds on how to design societies and whole libraries on social history in the RL.
So I agree with Rogue: Gurps Societies would be a coooool thing. A definite buy. Though it'd need a catchier title :)
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:00 AM   #43
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

No, not quite done.

I see I was pre-empted a little in pointing this out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
the old Low-Tech isn't a gear catalog (weapons, armors, tools, equipment, vehicles). It has a lot of useful information about environment, technologies, society, learning, warfare and transportation. I want the new book to expand upon these things.
...but I think, given the marketing realities pointed out by Sean and Paul, I think that expanding on these areas might be pushing the boundaries of real expectations, into wishy-dreamy territory. As I said, maybe not expand on it, but *definitely* don't rduce it, just re-phrase the information to make it more generally applicable and less culture specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
As other posters pointed out, there is a lot of material to to fill the gaps. The following is a list of things that need to be added or greatly expanded, off the top of my head:
  • Arms and Armors Customization rules.
  • Specialized Arms and Armors Breakage rules.
  • Arms and Armors Size and Scaling rules.
  • Detailed Arms and Armors descriptions.
  • Arms and Armors illustrations.
  • Expanded bow/crossbow/arrows rules.
  • Archaic Mass Combat Rules.
Yep. 'nuff said on that, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
I don't want Fantasy in a tech book. I can make Fantasy myself, it's far, far easier to come up with fancy stuff, than research historically accurate information. I don't want 100 pages of random, arbitrary ideas.

Expand upon the old Low-Tech, add Pyramid material, gear illustrations and descriptions, the items discussed above, and you are almost done. If you still need to fill space, maybe add a chapter about common fantasy gear (sigh), but please keep the book focused on low tech and historical accuracy.
Again, the message I'm getting from what Sean and Paul have said is that this just isn't realistically gonna happen. Still, Luther has a point, to a certain extent, in that the mundane "this is how a sword works" kind of stuff is more necessary to those whose primary focus is Fantasy, than the Fantasy stuff is necessary for us history nerds. So, package the whole book as "Tech for Mediaeval Fantasy", make 3/4 of the book the realistic, historically accurate stuff us really vocal and annoying folks are drooling for more of, but *present* it as the necessary foundational information that the 1/4 of the book that is aimed at the Fantasy Gamer market is built upon. I mean, Fantasy Gamers (TM) need swords and bows and armour and stuff too, right? So why not write up all the historically accurate stuff as a foundation, then add on the section that says "and here's how you make that TL2 mail hauberk into the Incredibly Wonderful Chain-Mail (sic) Armour of the One True King." (!!!) (!)

BTW, for what it's worth, I have a friend who has been playing d20 all his life, who told me recently that, while the whole idea of GURPS as a gaming system kinda turns him off, he did go out and buy Low Tech, which he finds incredibly useful and might even have gotten him thinking about giving GURPS as a whole another look-see. I know, I know, "my friend" doesn't even count as a percent of a percent of a percent of your marketing figures, but there you go.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:05 AM   #44
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
Let me point out that what Fantasy Gear is to Low-Tech gear, Superscience is to Hard Science. But I assume no one wanted Ultra-Tech without the superscience part, right? So I can see Fantasy Gear fit right into Low Tech.
I disagree, Ultra-Tech is already about fictional stuff, it's all about fictional stuff. Low-Tech is about historical tech. One of the most difficult and time consuming task, as a GM, is researching and finding good historical information useful in gaming, without all the extra, boring details.

Low tech info will help to save my time; fantasy tech stuff will not.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:17 AM   #45
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
I disagree, Ultra-Tech is already about fictional stuff, it's all about fictional stuff. Low-Tech is about historical tech.
I suspect Kromm et al do not agree to this sharp division. If they would, we wouldn't need the Superscience ^, right? After all, all scifi stuff is fictional, as you correctly point out.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:31 AM   #46
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
I suspect Kromm et al do not agree to this sharp division. If they would, we wouldn't need the Superscience ^, right? After all, all scifi stuff is fictional, as you correctly point out.
No, it isn't right.

All sci-fi stuff is fictional, that's a fact. This fictional stuff can be more or less likely to happen.

Low tech happened, and you need to research for it, and searching takes time, and I (as many of you) don't have a lot of gaming time. So putting fantasy stuff into the book, detracts from its utility.

Personally I don't want fantasy stuff into Low-Tech, not even a page. It already have GURPS Fantasy, Fantastic Cities, Modern Fantasy, Banestorm, (a likely) Magic Items and so on. However if having a (little) content of fantasy tech is the only way to get the book done, I'll resign. But, keep the title Low-Tech, I can already envision arguments shot down, hypothetical example:

"Hey, Mr. Playtester Complainer, the book is not GURPS Realistic Historical Stuff, it's Fantasy Tech, the armors and weapons should be fun and gameable above all"

OMG. Beware of Fantasy-Tech title.


PS: has someone a clear idea of what's fantasy tech?
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:34 AM   #47
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
OMG. Beware of Fantasy-Tech title.
Kromm pointed out this wasn't the actual title, but more like a working title. Let's not get too worked up about the title of the book, OK?
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:37 AM   #48
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
Kromm pointed out this wasn't the actual title, but more like a working title. Let's not get too worked up about the title of the book, OK?
Of course, and my point is every title that contains the word FANTASY or not explicitly says it's about realistic stuff, can change the tone of the book.
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:28 AM   #49
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Low tech happened, and you need to research for it, and searching takes time, and I (as many of you) don't have a lot of gaming time. So putting fantasy stuff into the book, detracts from its utility.
Explain this, please. I don't see how having fantasy tech (which I presume will be clearly marked) makes the historical information less useful, any more than putting information about mythology into GURPS Greece invalidated the information about actual Greek history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
"Hey, Mr. Playtester Complainer, the book is not GURPS Realistic Historical Stuff, it's Fantasy Tech, the armors and weapons should be fun and gameable above all"
Well, it should. A cumbersome and dull book does not serve the game or the people who play it. The simulationism should be there for the people who want it, but it absolutely should not be the primary goal.
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:56 AM   #50
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding
Because it takes page count away from historical information and because it provides an excuse ("This isn't a historical sourcebook, it's a Fantasy sourcebook") for incorrect or inaccurate information (like too-heavy armor).

I don't really see how historically accurate information is inherently dull or cumbersome. How for instance if a corslet weighs x instead of 2x, is that dull or cumbersome?
You seem to be misinterpreting what Andrew said for your own argument.

As I read it, he's saying (to paraphrase), "Gameability and fun should take precedence over simulationism in GURPS." You're interpreting this as, "Simulationism should not be a consideration."

In other words, yes, things like armor weights, etc., should be as accurate as possible. However, if there's ever a need to choose between a 100% accurate presentation of something and a gameable and fun presentation of it, GURPS should/will choose the latter.
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