[Low-Tech/High-Tech] Looting and Improvising arms and armour in Victorian London

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Icelander

What kind of DR would boiler plate that is capable of being cut by bench shears have?

Would it be DR 3?

AFAICT, a good set of bench shears you'd be looking at rolled plate iron up to ~1/4' (6 mm) thick, possibly a little thicker if you've a good set. Per the Basic Set, that puts you at DR 10-12 for the parts actually covered by the plate. There's a reason I compared it to Ned Kelley's suit. He used ploughshares rather than boiler plate, but he was in the Australian bush, not the world's preeminent industrial city.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by adm

Depending on the business in the area you may find odds and ends to make improvised explosives, don't forget things like carbide lamps and all the street gas powered lights, with a bit of time, and care, you maybe able to make local gas pockets before the pressure drops too low.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Making it a particularly useful weapon is a skill check (though not an especially difficult one) -- making something that burns is no challenge, making something that doesn't burn the thrower, stays lit when thrown, ignites the spilled material after it breaks, and sticks to the target instead of running off into the street requires at least some skill.

It wouldn't be especially surprising to have either a construction company or a (likely illegal) fireworks factory in the area.

Originally Posted by dcarson

Probably already looted but if there are any pawnshops you should find weapons there, sloppy looters might have grabbed guns but missed boxes of ammo under the counter. Any place with a commercial kitchen should provide cleavers and large knives.

I'm not at all certain what one would find in a pawnshop in 1888, apart from the obvious 'shonky shops' that many residents no doubt get their clothings from.

An illegal firearms factory and/or a match factory would indeed yield useful stuff in the form of black powder and phosphorous. Both are probable, albeit most likely not on Aldgate High Street or Whitechapel High Street, but rather further north or south, in the smaller side streets.

As for how to make improvised explosives and incendiaries from street lights or common industrial products in workshops and smaller factories, I invite suggestions for methods and for attendant game stats.

What kind of explosive or incendiary device could you make by tapping street lights or carbide lamps?

How could you use yellow phosphorous?

What else goes boom or burns fiercely and would be easy to find in Whitechapel workshops?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

AFAICT, a good set of bench shears you'd be looking at rolled plate iron up to ~1/4' (6 mm) thick, possibly a little thicker if you've a good set. Per the Basic Set, that puts you at DR 10-12 for the parts actually covered by the plate. There's a reason I compared it to Ned Kelley's suit. He used ploughshares rather than boiler plate, but he was in the Australian bush, not the world's preeminent industrial city.

A 2'X2' sheet (Which is enough to cover most of the chest area) of 1/4" wrought iron is going to weigh around 40 lbs, so that's 80 lbs for back and breast. You can probably keep the bracers and iron down the skirts below 20 lbs, though, so that'll keep you under your 100 lb upper limit.

[Icelander]

It strikes me that the following exchange from the campaign thread is more properly belonging to this thread:

Originally Posted by SteampengMK-1

Hello there Icelander, Steampeng MK un' at your service

Seeing this is about Monster Hunters, I'm just wondering, have you thought about the weapons there going to be using?

Well, in the case of Col. H. E. Wilkinson, there is a whole thread devoted to his gun cabinet. Col. Wilkinson still hasn't been able to get to his rooms on Cartwright Street to claim his full arsenal, but fortunately, the adventure began at the wake of an old service acquintance who had a gun cabinet stocked with military and sporting weapons acquired during his own extensive colonial service. From there, Col. Wilkinson was able to obtain a Greener Elephant Rifle in 8-bore, a couple of Martini-Henry rifles (gone to arm refugees) and a shiny new-fangled Lebel rifle from the continent, among many other goodies that he has distributed among the survivors at St. Botolph's church. He has mostly relied on the Lebel and the Greener 8-bore double, with his own cavalry saber and Webley pistol for close quarters.

Father MacManus has a massive silver-plated cross that is not only a powerful holy object of considerable antiquity, but also surprisingly well-balanced for use as a bludgeon. This has been his primary weapon. He has also been provided with salvaged firearms; a 10-gauge single-barrel bush shotgun with a fairly short barrel, loaded with 'lion shot', i.e. nine big pellets and a heavy powder charge, and an American Smith & Wesson No. 3 revolver in .44 Russian. He has gotten good service from his heavy cross and been reasonably satisfied with the 10-gauge, but has not fired the S&W revolver.

During early sessions, he strapped to his front a heavy oak plate from a table to serve as improvised armour, as well as using a stool as a shield, but he now plans to obtain some better improvised armour, as per thread. He is also considering having Otto Hirschsohn, a Jewish ironmonger and craftsman in the Minories, cut down the barrel of the 10-gauge and cut the stock off, so that he can more easily carry it as a sidearm. Two Best Quality Greener 12-gauge sporting doubles retrieved from a gentleman's gun cabinet might also be destined for similar treatment, if only to remove the choke from the long barrels.

Reginand St. John Woodsworth III is not much of a gunfighter, but he carries a beautiful sword-stick, as a fashion statement if nothing more. He also possesses a deringer-type gun, as well as a pocket pistol for self-protection. Both are custom-made and extremely fancy, but not much use for an actual firefight. Then again, neither is Reggie Wordsworth. So far, his contribution to combat has been mostly the use of ritual magic he has prepared beforehand, but he has on two or three occasions fired a Webley No. 1 R.I.C. in .442 RIC and/or a Lancaster Howdah pistol in .476 Enfield, usually with no more effect than startling foes into seeking cover.

George 'the Teapot' Frankton does not like firearms, but he has a collection of sharp knives concealed on his person, one long, heavy and intimidating blade with a knuckleduster built into the grip, an honest-to-God butcher's cleaver, a knobbed cudgel with a concealed spike at the other end and for all the other PCs know, razors built into various articles of clothing. He also seems to have metal plates sewed into his clothing over vital areas.

A street urchin by the name of Jimbo Moss has been adopted by the PCs and provided with some weapons for self-protection. His diminiutive size somewhat limits the weapons he can wield, but if ferocity could make up for weighing (at the very most) 95 lbs. sopping wet, Jimbo would carry two elephant guns, one in each hand. Little Jimbo used an old Allen pepperbox with little success during initial encounters, but with patient instruction, Col. Wilkinson has managed to teach him to fire a Adams MkIII in .450 Adams with reasonable accuracy (i.e. might hit a barn). Now, it only remains to teach him when not to fire, as he has already grazed two PCs with friendly fire during desperate melees.

[Icelander]

The same for this post:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Icelander isn't setting up a campaign. He has one already running, and the PCs have a very limited time to arm their followers with what they can find or make, in a limited - and poverty-stricken - area of London at a specific date. As GM, he's applying a much stricter standard of realism about equipment and logistics than seems to be common for modern-day Monster Hunters campaigns.

Indeed so.

Though I note that the Docklands would not be an unreasonable place to find all sorts of foreign-made merchandise, including the Apache pistol (more properly, the Dolne Revolver Combine). The primary problem is that it is not very useful. The pinfire cartridges are hardly powerful enough for self-defence at any range over a couple of feet, there is in any case no mechanism to aim them for longer shots, the folding dagger blade is ridiculously short and as a knuckleduster, it is encumbered by a plethora of moving parts. Finally, the all-things-to-all-men design means that it is actually harder to conceal than a proper pocket pistol, a proper dagger and a proper knuckleduster.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that carrying a pistol for self-defence was not only socially acceptable, it was encouraged by society. Any man who had occasion to walk rough areas at night and who could afford one would probably have a pocket pistol.

The problem with finding a lot of them in the East End is the part about being able to afford one. I do find some references to 'cheap German revolvers' in period sources, but have so far been unable to find what weapons those might be. The German revolers in High-Tech: Adventure Guns are military models, chambered for a heavy round and not at all inexpensive. Indeed, most of the weapons I find there are worth several month's of full time work pay for a typical East End worker and thus unsuitable for ownership except by the prosperous among them. I am very desirous to find whether there were pocket pistols in smaller calibers than .442 RIC or .450 Adams, which might be less expensive and more common.

I do think that many of the survivors, especially those male survivors who were merely passing through Whitechapel at the time of the catastrophe, will carry some form of self-defence weapon. Let us not forget that at this precise moment in time, the prosperous citizens of the area were banding together into vigilante bands to hunt 'Saucy Jack' and I imagine that most everyone connected to a Vigilance Committee would go about with a pocket pistol, sword stick, a stout cudgel or a knife. Even if less than 5% of men outside were carrying a pistol, the brutal self-selection inherent in weeding out those not capable of surviving an attack by a stray cat twisted into a demonic flesh-eating creature, or perhaps a gaggle of rats, would insure that those armed in some fashion were more likely to reach sanctuary in a church.

However, few will have carried spare ammunition and most will have already fired their weapons in order to kill or scare away feral creatures or other survivors, twisted or crazed through some mystical means. There will thus be plenty of empty pocket pistols, but those are no good for defenders unless more ammunition can be found.

Originally Posted by johndallman

A lot of those guns seem to have been Belgian-made copies of American or British designs, sold through German distributors to improve their image.

Good point. I note that in Adventure Guns, I can find evidence that the British Bulldog was widely copied in Belgium, Germany, France, US and elsewhere. Many would be in .450 Centerfire, as well as .320 Centerfire and .380 Centerfire near the turn of the century, but I don't know if there were earlier rimfire versions and what chamberings those used. There exists some Continental 8mm revolver cartridge that would use same or similar GURPS stats as .32 CF, but is not interchangable with it, but I'm not sure whether foreign copies of Bulldogs that were sold in England would be chambered for it.

It is not noted in HT:AG that the S&W No. 1 in .22 Short was copied by others than the initial maker, but I am confident that this gun was, indeed, copied in Belgium and elsewhere. How common it was, however, I do not know. It might be that .22 Short was a common pocket pistol round, but if so, I have not yet found evidence lending direct support to such a contention.

I understand that British double-barreled boxlock pocket pistols in a variety of calibers would be typical cheap self-defence weapons. I imagine that .320 CF and .380 CF would have been somewhat popular, in addition to the more effective calibers of .44 Short Rimfire, .442 Enfield, .442 RIC, .450 Adams, .455 Webley or .476 Enfield. The 24-bore (or the .577 Boxer) would be the apogee of the self-defence calibers, unless one were to carry a howdah pistol in .577 Snider.

The Colt Model 1849 Pocket in .31 Caplock would be a very desirable pocket pistol in the previous generation and if it was copied in Europe (and perhaps existed in cartridge conversions), it might still be around as a cheap alternative to modern weapons. In much the same way, pepperbox revolvers like the Allen that the PCs have already found are fairly likely to be a cheap alternative to more modern double-action revolvers. I don't know the names of any prolific manufacturer selling on the English market, however.

The S&W No. 2 Army in .32 Short and the Colt .41 House Pistol ('Cloverleaf') would both be very practical self-defence weapons if they were easily available in London and/or copied in Europe. I don't know if they were, however, or who made them if they were copied.

The bigger Lefaucheux Mle1854 and S&W No. 3 revolvers are also noted in HT:AG as having been very commonly copied in Belgium, Germany and elsewhere. They could be carried by those who desire something bigger than a pocket gun.

If they were reasonably common, copies of cartridge conversions for the Adams, Colt No. 5 ('Paterson') and Colt Navy might be reasonable weapons for poor-ish, but protection-minded sailors or vagabonds near the dock to have acess to. Alas, I have no information on whether Belgian, French, German or British gunsmiths made cheaper copies of these that would be available as out-of-date and economical arms in the late 19th century. The nearest I can figure are the various calibers available for the Tranter revolver, which came in a variety of them, including .36, .44 and .50. They were made in caplock, rimfire and centerfire versions, but I'm not sure about the common calibers for the latter two.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

* A lot of folks are focusing on the armor situation, but I don't think it's nearly as grim as all of that. Near to the docks, are you? Got plenty of people handy who know how to sew, do you? Have light chain a-plenty, do you? Terrific. Then this is how you do it: you have your seamstresses get to work on sewing tubes of heavy canvas, at the bottom of strips of heavy canvas. One seamstress to a tube, that should go relatively quickly. You sew them all together into a shirt of sorts, then thread those lengths of chain through the tubes. Whomp a blacksmith's leather apron over that to protect the canvas from being ripped, and you've got something I don't hesitate to call DR 3. I'd give it an activation roll, especially against any thrusting attack, but even so.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Not proper brigandine, but the half-assed coat of plates I described above is better than leather alone, and a lot better than nothing.

At least one of the smiths should have a set of bench shears, which can be used to cut sheet metal in straight lines, which is all that's needed.

Boiler plate should answer perfectly well for the purpose, and be easily available.

Things that can be 'smashed' conveniently tend to make poor armor.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Icelander wanted armor plate to insert in a chest pocket, probably bulletproof if horribly heavy, and a bathtub could be a good source of it.
Of course, wrought iron or steel sheet is preferable to cast iron, but finding and cutting it will be harder.
I am certainly not advocating making any kind of fitted armor with it, just armor plates.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

AFAICT, a good set of bench shears you'd be looking at rolled plate iron up to ~1/4' (6 mm) thick, possibly a little thicker if you've a good set. Per the Basic Set, that puts you at DR 10-12 for the parts actually covered by the plate. There's a reason I compared it to Ned Kelley's suit. He used ploughshares rather than boiler plate, but he was in the Australian bush, not the world's preeminent industrial city.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

A 2'X2' sheet (Which is enough to cover most of the chest area) of 1/4" wrought iron is going to weigh around 40 lbs, so that's 80 lbs for back and breast. You can probably keep the bracers and iron down the skirts below 20 lbs, though, so that'll keep you under your 100 lb upper limit.

Ok, so even if we assume that the nearest sheet iron is not as thick as all that and that it would take hours to cut in any case, it is not unreasonable to suppose that DR 6 sheet iron might be available in a convenient size to cover the Chest(F) area*.

So a leather coat (and some cloth padding) might be the underlayer for the armour, with a pocket (probably taken from a butcher's apron) sewed on in the front to hold a piece of sheet iron to cover the upper chest area. Then you might wrap some combination of light and heavy chains around the chest area (wrapping some light chains up over the shoulders to help hold this), perhaps securing them together with rivets, bars, bent nails or whatever else you have time to do. Finally, finish up with quick-and-dirty sewing to secure two leather butchers' aprons as the outer layer, front and back.

Add long and thick leather gloves that you find somewhere and wrap the forearms in chains, with some bars or rivets inserted on the outside edge. Wear high leather boots, as thick as possible, and if you have time, have someone sew iron bars into the shins and other leather reinforcements anywhere you can.

The result will take forever to take off, result in at least -1 DX and weight between 60-100 lbs., but should be quite protective. DR 2 (3 against cut) or so for the shins and forearms, DR 3+ for the Chest area and DR 8+ for part of the frontal Chest hit location. Most of the rest would be DR 1*.

*I think that Father MacManus is much more likely to need frontal armour than anything else, with his typically selfless and aggressive approach whenever innocents are in danger.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

It is not noted in HT:AG that the S&W No. 1 in .22 Short was copied by others than the initial maker, but I am confident that this gun was, indeed, copied in Belgium and elsewhere. How common it was, however, I do not know. It might be that .22 Short was a common pocket pistol round, but if so, I have not yet found evidence lending direct support to such a contention.

My main source is Hogg and Walters Pistols of the World, and .22 Short and .22 LR were indeed common calibres for pocket pistols, along with .320 CF and .38 CF. Lots of these guns were in pretty feeble chamberings, because their purpose was intimidation, rather than actual shooting, and low cost was important in the competitive market.

I don't know the names of any prolific manufacturer selling on the English market, however.

This doesn't seem to have been a brand-driven market. The same guns, from the same factories, were available via many distributors who put their own names on them. Consider the 1990s market in cheap-and-nasty personal computers; it seems to have been like that.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

My main source is Hogg and Walters Pistols of the World, and .22 Short and .22 LR were indeed common calibres for pocket pistols, along with .320 CF and .38 CF.

The .22 LR is a brand-new cartridge in 1888 (it dates from 1887), but .22 Short and .22 Long would be common enough. There were several types of .32 and .380 black powder cartridges, but I'm afraid that I don't know which of them would be popular in England in 1888.

I do have a feeling that the .320 CF and .380 CF were fairly newish, with rimfire cartridges probably used in cheaper, older models of pocket pistols. There was a .320 European (or .320 Bulldog) that appears to have been introduced in 1870 specifically for the Webley Bulldog, which is either another name for, identical to .320 CF, or at least uses the same GURPS stats.

Do you have any French or German small bore black powder loadings that date to the 1870s in your books?

Originally Posted by johndallman

Lots of these guns were in pretty feeble chamberings, because their purpose was intimidation, rather than actual shooting, and low cost was important in the competitive market.

Very true.

Originally Posted by johndallman

This doesn't seem to have been a brand-driven market. The same guns, from the same factories, were available via many distributors who put their own names on them. Consider the 1990s market in cheap-and-nasty personal computers; it seems to have been like that.

Yes, that fits with what I have been seeing online.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Then you might wrap some combination of light and heavy chains around the chest area (wrapping some light chains up over the shoulders to help hold this), perhaps securing them together with rivets, bars, bent nails or whatever else you have time to do. Finally, finish up with quick-and-dirty sewing to secure two leather butchers' aprons as the outer layer, front and back.

Add long and thick leather gloves that you find somewhere and wrap the forearms in chains, with some bars or rivets inserted on the outside edge. Wear high leather boots, as thick as possible, and if you have time, have someone sew iron bars into the shins and other leather reinforcements anywhere you can.

It's actually just possible that Mr. Hirschsohn has got one of the new arc welders (on the market for a couple years at this point), which will make that type of fastening go a lot faster. It won't be fun for the good father, and it will make taking it off and even bigger nightmare, but the leather and padding should keep him from taking actual damage while being welded into his suit. He might have some minor burns on exposed skin from sparks, but unless Hirschsohn screws up significantly it shouldn't be enough to make up even 1 HP of actual damage. Thick leather gauntlets will be part of several flavors of tradesman's gear, and shouldn't be hard to locate at all.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

It's actually just possible that Mr. Hirschsohn has got one of the new arc welders (on the market for a couple years at this point), which will make that type of fastening go a lot faster. It won't be fun for the good father, and it will make taking it off and even bigger nightmare, but the leather and padding should keep him from taking actual damage while being welded into his suit. He might have some minor burns on exposed skin from sparks, but unless Hirschsohn screws up significantly it shouldn't be enough to make up even 1 HP of actual damage. Thick leather gauntlets will be part of several flavors of tradesman's gear, and shouldn't be hard to locate at all.

Heh.

Because of prior injuries* that threathened to incapacitate the good Father, Reggie Woodsworth has subjected him to a ritual that makes him incapable of feeling pain.**

*Sustained in breaking a window and falling to the street, tumbling from a carriage as it crashed dramatically and a cut to the cheek and a stab to the stomach.
**Immunity to Pain (High Pain Threshold + immunity to any degree of pain) mitigated by the Disadvantage Numb.