Quick Fix For Traditional Magic System

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Otaku

it can be very confusing for players to understand that what makes something "rare" is its point cost, not its true rarity.

The confusion comes from thinking that Unusual Background has any thing to do with rarity. It doesn't. Heroes, like PCs, are in most settings rare by definition. That doesn't mean they all deserve their CP docked for UB.

The closest connection to rarity are the cases where some ability is more powerful than is usual because it doesn't appear in the setting. The cliche example is magic in a world where no one believes in magic, and thus lack defenses, never think of it as a possible explanation, and so on. You can associate this extra power indirectly with rarity, figuring that if mages were all over the place and everyone knew about it, they'd have those defenses. But that's not quite right. The population of concern is people the PCs encounter. The Cabal in a secret magic campaign know all about it, even though the number of PCs and Cabalists is a tiny fraction of the population of the earth. Mages going up against the Cabal don't have any special advantage, and don't rate a UB, the way they might if the campaign were limited to acting against modern mundanes.

you shouldn't have to put your thumb on the scale to achieve balance.

There is no universal system of constant prices which is balanced for all settings (your prices included). There's always some setting where some ability becomes useful or powerful out of line with most games. The forum is full of examples. The job of the worldbuilder is indeed to put his thumb on the scales where necessary.

"Unusual Background" is one of the 4e names for that thumb.

(Note that in 1e, UB was the catch-all Advantage used to cover cases that didn't have a fitting advantage of their own. The example there had a character that could speak multiple languages as a native, thanks to their parentage and itinerant background. There was no other way to buy native ability in a language, so UB it was. These days, people are much more likely just to make up a new Advantage without bothering to call it UB, and UB migrating to trying to compensate for the local setting variances. But the association with frequency of appearance just muddies the water, IMO.)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The confusion comes from thinking that Unusual Background has any thing to do with rarity. It doesn't. Heroes, like PCs, are in most settings rare by definition. That doesn't mean they all deserve their CP docked for UB.

The closest connection to rarity are the cases where some ability is more powerful than is usual because it doesn't appear in the setting. The cliche example is magic in a world where no one believes in magic, and thus lack defenses, never think of it as a possible explanation, and so on. You can associate this extra power indirectly with rarity, figuring that if mages were all over the place and everyone knew about it, they'd have those defenses. But that's not quite right. The population of concern is people the PCs encounter. The Cabal in a secret magic campaign know all about it, even though the number of PCs and Cabalists is a tiny fraction of the population of the earth. Mages going up against the Cabal don't have any special advantage, and don't rate a UB, the way they might if the campaign were limited to acting against modern mundanes.

There is no universal system of constant prices which is balanced for all settings (your prices included). There's always some setting where some ability becomes useful or powerful out of line with most games. The forum is full of examples. The job of the worldbuilder is indeed to put his thumb on the scales where necessary.

"Unusual Background" is one of the 4e names for that thumb.

(Note that in 1e, UB was the catch-all Advantage used to cover cases that didn't have a fitting advantage of their own. The example there had a character that could speak multiple languages as a native, thanks to their parentage and itinerant background. There was no other way to buy native ability in a language, so UB it was. These days, people are much more likely just to make up a new Advantage without bothering to call it UB, and UB migrating to trying to compensate for the local setting variances. But the association with frequency of appearance just muddies the water, IMO.)

I'm sorry for the slight derailment, and even though I'm sick as hell right now, I just had to say, Anaraxes you clearly get exactly how this trait is supposed to be used. I've done damn near half a dozen posts on the topic and I still can't get people to understand this. When I'm better, I'm going to do yet another post on the subject. For now, you sir, get a cookie. Again, sorry for the derailment. I'd +1 this post if I could.

[Dwarf99]

One of the points he made about simply renaming the advantage of UB:

Back in my Powers as Magic days, I had an Afflict advantage that allowed characters to add Talent CP/Day to an affliction of a permanent cumulative advantage. It was 21-24 CP. Rather than fiddling with math to recreate enchanting for every game individually I called UB:Powers Enchanter. Still, the underlying rationale was glossing over lots of math with UB in order to make a new advantage, which I still pretty much use in all my games no matter which Magic System I use (and I don't ever use Standard Magic).

[scc]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I'm sorry for the slight derailment, and even though I'm sick as hell right now, I just had to say, Anaraxes you clearly get exactly how this trait is supposed to be used. I've done damn near half a dozen posts on the topic and I still can't get people to understand this. When I'm better, I'm going to do yet another post on the subject. For now, you sir, get a cookie. Again, sorry for the derailment. I'd +1 this post if I could.

So UB is a cost adjuster on advantages in the campaign when the GM wants to make them more rare?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by scc

So UB is a cost adjuster on advantages in the campaign when the GM wants to make them more rare?

That's...very nearly the opposite of what was said, you know.

UB is a cost adjuster for when the GM deems an advantage to be more valuable in context of their particular game than the standard price. Rarity is tangential at best.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The confusion comes from thinking that Unusual Background has any thing to do with rarity. It doesn't. Heroes, like PCs, are in most settings rare by definition. That doesn't mean they all deserve their CP docked for UB.

In a lot of ways, I think the problem is the word "background". If it were renamed "Unusual Benefit" it would better fit what the points are supposed to be for - that you are paying for an extra advantage of some sort, not just for rarity that doesn't do anything for you.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The confusion comes from thinking that Unusual Background has any thing to do with rarity. It doesn't.

1) In 3e it was suggested as a tool for keeping certain things from being overly common: Supers was the best example I can remember off the top of my head. This was only if the party were not all Supers as if they were, you could adjust their encounters accordingly with out it being a hassle no matter how rare the trait was. This may not apply to 4e, but as the entire point was discussing how it can be a bit confusing, that is one aspect of it.

2) It doesn't keep it from being misleading. It isn't the only thing in GURPS where the name in plain English suggests something a bit different from the actual rules. It is a small matter, and perhaps I should not have brought it up.

3) An Unusual Background will ultimately make a trait less common unless someone goes out of the way to make that not so, although a small enough UB will make a negligible difference. A UB effectively raises the cost of a trait, so if it puts it out of the range of the majority of a population, it puts it out of their range.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

3) An Unusual Background will ultimately make a trait less common unless someone goes out of the way to make that not so, although a small enough UB will make a negligible difference. A UB effectively raises the cost of a trait, so if it puts it out of the range of the majority of a population, it puts it out of their range.

Populations do not buy things with character points. Players buy things with character points when building PCs, and that's pretty much it for legitimate use.

Point ranges given for ordinary or extraordinary people are descriptive, not prescriptive. Populations have the traits what the setting says they do, not what you can buy for 50 points.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The confusion comes from thinking that Unusual Background has any thing to do with rarity. It doesn't. Heroes, like PCs, are in most settings rare by definition. That doesn't mean they all deserve their CP docked for UB.

Supers 29 would seem to disagree with you. There, UB levels specifically seem to depend on the rarity of superpowers.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Supers 29 would seem to disagree with you. There, UB levels specifically seem to depend on the rarity of superpowers.

Again, slight derailment (someone willing to start a new thread or a mod chop this one off?) It's not about the rarity of powers of the player characters, but the rarity of the world. If ALL PCs have equal access to the same powers, then no one needs a Unusual Background - no matter the rarity of said powers in the world itself. If PCs don't have equal access...then that's when the Unusual Background comes into play.