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Old 06-10-2021, 07:56 AM   #1
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

Well I never really noticed it until recently when McCloud brought it up . It's never been explicitly mentioned but does or not a Rev Trikes +50% Cost to 'chassis' (Body?) effect costs of :
A : The Cost of Chassis Strength ?
B : The Cost of Suspension Improvements ?
C : Both ?

Due to how it's poorly worded in the Compendium & the Trikes Chassis strength rules being brought into to text at same time , it seems unclear .

Unlike Carbon-Aluminium Frames rules where it is incredibly clear in written text , with Reversed Trikes it is not .

So depending on whether players are using Combat Garage , Compendium or older rules material , you can get at least three different prices for identical designs .

ADQ&A in ADQ 7/1 was very exact in procedural order for Body Modifiers , Tyre Modifications (despite +33.333% DP increase on Steelbelting Tyres stated there being missed in many other subsequent rule publishing) , so can someone post in step by step detail how exactly we should be doing Rev Trike Modifiers please ?

It's going to be a nightmare going over mine & others designs to see if they all need correcting now ... oh joy ... 8-l
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Old 06-10-2021, 10:17 AM   #2
juris
 
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

C - just like a CA frame - it's not that significant for an extra +1 to HC.

I'm sure you agree smart links are not required for trike side guns as the compendium 2.5e just says you can link side weapons together on p 76:)

The real confusion to me is why the front of a reverse trike is still considered to be lower than the back (p 39) for purposes of targeting the top armor. I've always just house ruled this away


Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post
Well I never really noticed it until recently when McCloud brought it up . It's never been explicitly mentioned but does or not a Rev Trikes +50% Cost to 'chassis' (Body?) effect costs of :
A : The Cost of Chassis Strength ?
B : The Cost of Suspension Improvements ?
C : Both ?

l
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:32 PM   #3
Racer
 
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

Thank you Juris :-)

Think word 'chassis' in the text should be changed to 'body' though ?

I go by later ADQ&As & text in UACFH for Smart Links must be used to link a Trike's side weaponry , as it's one reason S.Links were brought in originally . Same goes for Targeting Lasers on Gas Engined powered vehicle REQUIRING Laser Batteries or similar . Both these were subject to rules abuse previously to this . Some guys complain bitterly about these on Combat Garage but sorry it's been clearly stated in published Rules clarifications (unlike Mine Flinger Magazines or HMG weight etc) , so you have to go with it .

Cost wise it doesn't really matter unless it's a low cost designs . Now it makes almost zero sense to use a Rev Trikes unless they're higher performance ones . I suppose Ram Trikes as well , but as almost no one uses Ram Plates on vehicles under 4,000lbs (our group severely frowns upon RP Subs & it's got to cleared with Duel Masters beforehand to use them) , so not really an issue .

Heavily Armoured Trikes with Bumper Spikes to use against lighter opponents is fine of course . Due to higher performance of current designs , the use of Ramplates outside of Arenas is extremely questionable these days - barring specialist 'Blockade Busters' or 'Breachers' designs . Weight is better used in beefing up Armour protect in vast majority of cases .
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

A heavier or twin weapons mounted on Left side of Road Trikes often makes up for increased cost with Smart Links on budget designs .
As vehicles drive on Right in North America , this gives a huge Weapons Arc facing where most of opposition is likely to be placed .

(Sorry for double posts: previous post was getting long & phone is playing up ...)
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post
Well I never really noticed it until recently when McCloud brought it up . It's never been explicitly mentioned but does or not a Rev Trikes +50% Cost to 'chassis' (Body?) effect costs of :
A : The Cost of Chassis Strength ?
B : The Cost of Suspension Improvements ?
C : Both ?
Pretty-sure answer "C" -- a reversed trike being a whole other body type from the original.

Best use for any kind of trike is the To-Hit Mods. My last Div. 5 event before I got booted from NOVA, the resident Omnicidal Maniac brought a Sloped Light Trike; -4/-3 to-hit before any other mods. (He still lost, badly -- Tracer LMGs versus my metal-armored _INS_ subcompact.... >:) )
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Old 06-12-2021, 02:26 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

I've always read chassis and body as synonymous.

Technically chassis is a subcomponent of body (as body includes chassis plus lights, seats, targeting system etc.) but since later under body weight it mentions "body and frame" as being included in the stat line of the body type it also means the "body type" cost includes the body, frame and chassis. There is no such thing as chassis cost, body cost or frame cost, there is only a Body Type cost.

With the reversed trike the 50% extra is applied to the base "Body Type" cost. Any chassis or suspension upgrades are based on that new body cost since basic chassis and suspension are all part of the "Body Type".

But to be honest this isn't explicit and back in the day we had people who argued that improved suspension was based on modified chassis costs (rather than as now explicitly stated on the base body type cost).

As long as you are consistent in your games it probably doesn't matter much even with CA Frame, the extra components you are adding (because you now have hundreds of pounds more to play with) will usually increase the cost far more than the cost of the CA Frame itself.

For reference CWVD increases the Body Type cost by 50% and then applies chassis and suspension mods on this increased cost. Putting the Survivor from CWC 2.5 through it matches the published numbers so this indicates CWC 2.5 uses this ruling also.

Ordinarily I would check more examples, but there are very few examples of published reverse trikes and very few trikes at all after the rules allowing chassis upgrades was introduced. The Hammerhead in VG uses different design rules (and I can't even get it to work with the rules published in the same book!)

Last edited by swordtart; 06-12-2021 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 06-12-2021, 01:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

The _VG1_ Trike rules have a rather-conspicuous error in them -- the body types are all two spaces smaller than published elsewhere.

The _Hammerhead_ is just another example of Bad Arithmetic.
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Old 06-12-2021, 06:56 PM   #8
Racer
 
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

An updated Hammerhead would require a Super Trike PP with both SCs & PCs on a X-Hvy Chassis to take advantage of weighing in at 4,000lbs plus .

That's $5,100 just on PP - far more cost & weight affective to have a $1,000/$1,200/$1,700/$2,000 Power Plant on a solid Ram Compact or Mid-Size .

( Post 2050 we have costs of Super Trike reduced to $2,500 in some of our group games & a 1,400 PF HD Trike PP & a 2,500 PF 'ThunderKit' PP available for $3,000 & $6,000 respectively . Seems to work very well in games .)

A 5mph/10mph Acceleration will rarely get you in a position to ram anyway these days - unless target is boxed into a tight position .

The (two?) Light Trikes with Ramplates in ADAA VG2 look laughable currently of course .
( pages in my battered copy are loose & can't find first Trike page . I can't recall if Trike above Flaming Arrow is a Light Trike or not ?)
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Old 06-13-2021, 12:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

Of course it was doubtless designed under the old ramplate rules which were far more effective and it would have been viable even with only a 2/3 damage modifier. If it was operating off-road it would have benefitted from improved attack aspects (since it could come in at you from the sides of the road) and if you followed it you would likely be at a disadvantage (since the OR modifications were also quite new).

It doesn't HAVE to have an upgraded chassis (and of course it couldn't under the original rules). As it stands it is still 90lb under its max load (rather than the 5lb that is stated).

If you did uplift the chassis you are at liberty to fit a 100cid gas plant (there is plenty of space) and that allows you over 4000lb at less cost than upgrading the super trike plant. I'd also be putting in CA as it provides the best armour/cost-weight return (and we have plenty of space).
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Old 06-13-2021, 04:38 AM   #10
Racer
 
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Default Re: Rev Trike Costs : Rules & Ambiguous Wording etc .

Very true on Gas Engine option . We go by Gas Engines still being very rare outside Free Oil States , Australia , parts of South America , Africa & Russia/former or current (2nd) Soviet Union .

Good rule of thumb : Under one-in-fifty in most areas - in oil rich areas , around
one-in-twenty or better .

Highly doubt a 'backwoods ambush bandit' would have ready access to regular Gasoline supply to make a Gas Engine viable .

In an article posted online in around 2008-10 , there was a diagram for Autoduel Farm Settlement circa 2040 .
Plan view showed Solar Panels , two Wind Turbines & further off a Water Turbine-Heat Engine in a small creek .

Text stated that some locations could used distilled wood alcohol or methane products from human/animal/algae waste etc , for liquid fuel . Again this was stated as being far from usual with advanced battery storage being a better resource in most cases .
I'll try & find article later - have printed hardcopy somewhere , but before I had smartphone & don't think I have web address saved on my old email storage . I'll try a search later .

Majority of our games are solely based on Electric Power Plants to fit the general setting .
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