Witchcraft - Spellcasting Style

[Mr Dalton]

So, the GURPS manuals always turned me off a little bit because they're . . . very dense. And full of cross-referencing back and forth. But then a guy who joined my new gaming group bought the books and he used it to run a crime drama game, followed by a kind of Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind style post-apocalypse sort of game and once I'd played it a couple of times, the rule books started to make more sense. Boy, is that true for so many RPG books - they're nigh incomprehensible until you try to start playing them. Except CoC, that was just absurdly easy to figure out.
Sorry, I'm rambling.
The point is, I think our group might switch to GURPS full time. We were Pathfinder players (with occasional CoC, which we'll probably still also play from time to time), and as a longtime DM (starting in 3rd edition), I was heavily house-ruling a lot of Pathfinder to do things I wanted to do, but still running up against limits of the rule system.
GURPS seems to just work better with things I want to do. Including this idea I've had for how I want to differentiate witchcraft from wizardry. I expected to have more time before I implemented it, but the guy who was running the game previously is suffering serious burnout. I decided to switch to GURPS on this because the idea had a lot of horror undertones and the Pathfinder power creep aspect just undermines them. GURPS works better for a variety of reasons.
But now I need to get these conversions done within the next couple of weeks, so I don't really have time to really feel my way through it. So, asking the forums for help.

If you want to skip to the actual topic I'm trying to start, here's the spot.

So, what I've always wanted to do with witchcraft is make something more versatile than wizardry, but also more psychologically based. Also, including themes of bargaining with spiritual beings. The latter is easy: you study witchcraft, you have a Duty (as the disadvantage) to a spiritual power. Or possibly Pact. I'm not sure which is more appropriate, but Duty seems to do more of what I want it to.
The former, I have ideas, but I'm not super familiar with the magic system because the two games I've played in it didn't use magic. So, might need help balancing it.

So, the way I'm playing it here, witchcraft is always done using improvised spellcasting rules, but with the change that instead of needing to learn spells, they take a skill (thaumatology seems to be appropriate) and use that as the base. But, witches must also take a familiar that acts as their link between them and the supernatural world. The familiar tells them the will of their supernatural patron and the energy reserve the familiar has can only be used to cast spells associated with the patron's interests. From time to time, I, as the GM, will have the familiar tell the player that her patron demands she do something. She then has to do that, or else she lives under a sense of dread that punishment for disobedience is coming (it doesn't come right away, but it always comes, and the longer it gets delayed, the worse it will be).
The end result I'm aiming for is that the witch more or less can generate any magical effect she wants at the cost of being at the beck and call of her patron.
To further balance this, I'm adding a psychological component. How effective your magic as a witch is gets influenced by what people expect from you. What people believe a witch can do makes it easier for them to use those spells. So, in a European setting, spells that involve curses, transformation, mind control, and speaking to the dead are easier to do (no penalty), but throwing fireballs, teleporting, and other flashy types of magic are not expected and so harder to use (easier to resist, or harder to cast). But in a Chinese setting, the witch would find it easy to do divination, magical medicines, and spells that enhance herself, but mind control and traditional curses are harder. This means to be really effective, the witch has to learn what the people around her expect her to be able to do and alter her use of magic to reflect that.
One example, since these characters were originally made for Pathfinder, the witch has the Evil Eye hex. I made a power that duplicates the effects fairly accurately. However, to squeeze in that psychological component I wanted it to have, it comes with a couple of specific limitations. First, you have to see the target, the target has to see you. Second, the target has to understand you. Finally, to make the effect work, you have to make a statement that makes the target believe you're cursing them ("Your strength will fail you" to impose a penalty to strength, for example). Magic helps it land a bit, but what's really going on here is that you're convincing the other person that you're cursing them and that causes them to unconsciously hold themselves back. And if they can't understand you, their reaction is just, "Huh, that person is looking at me funny. I don't like it." It's uncomfortable, but they suffer no curse effects because you aren't giving their mind direction to block themselves.
I'm pretty sure I've worked out how to do all this mechanically. Once I got the basic rules down, the rest seemed to fall into place pretty easily. That said, do people here have any suggestions or concerns for balance issues? What kind of problems can I expect to run into and what might be a good way to mitigate them? Or are the limitations I've already placed on the magic effectively balance the versatility of not needing to learn every spell as its own skill?

[AlexanderHowl]

Not to be critical, but the post is really hard to follow because everything is bunched together. I would suggest putting breaks between the paragraphs, just do that people can read it better. Otherwise, you are not going to get to many responses.

Now, as for the question, it depends on if you want an ability-based system or a skill-based system. In the former case, a -10% version of Pact, the -5% version of Fickle, and -5% for mystical countermeasure, for a total of -20%, would probably work. In the latter case, you may want to look at Energy Accumulation Path/Book Magic or RPM, and the 'negotiation' would be the process of gathering energy (Path/Ritual Adept represents previous agreements with a lot of different spirits). Or you could combine both, which it the Pathfinder 1e Witch. In any case, you would probably want Spirit Empathy as a prerequisite to learn magic (or purchase Magery), unless the spirits give every bozo magical capabilities.

[LokRobster]

Seems like you have a good idea what direction you want the magic to work in. Making a spell harder or easier in GURPS is very simple... just tweak the modifiers in the direction you want it to go: -1 for a minor detrimental effect, or scale to -10 for nearly impossible. A good comparison is the “-5 to skill to cast spells in a low mana zone” in the default magic system. It is quite a Difficult task, but not impossible, especially by particularly power individuals, or by less powerful Mages that do a lot of prep to maximize any bonuses that might be available.

If you had gads of time, you could chart up some cool details with GURPS Thaumatology, but just having a solid idea of what you envision should allow you to develop your system on the fly. If it was me, I’d leave the magic knowledge level of the characters as “there’s a bunch you don’t know”, so you can see how it plays out and adjust the system as you go along.

The Pact or Duty concept works well for this (the actual name you use isn’t as important as the effect you give it), since if a Caster is relying on an entity to give power it is up to that entity how that magical gift functions. Magical beings can be as predictable or fickle as necessary; no mortal is likely to know the complete details and rules and thought process of the Being they’re working for.

On the thought of magical traditions of a culture being a primary power limiter:
If someone doesn’t believe in magic at all, would they basically have a magic resistance?

I do like the concept of making magic more effective based on researching the mindset of the target. Psychology or Research might be good complementary skills to give a bonus to the spellcast roll.

[maximara]

Thaumatology: Age of Gold restructures four GURPS Thaumatology Paths into Ritual Witchcraft: Path of Health, Path of Luck, Path of Nature, and Path of Protection

It is considered "a relatively “low end” variety of Path-based magic".

[DangerousThing]

Are your witches only female?

I prefer Sorcery for magic, which is a variant of Magic as Powers. It's detailed in GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery. It also have improvised magic, though that is typically less powerful than your specific spells. To me it feels more magical than the standard magic, which feels too much like that other game.

[gmillerd]

Originally Posted by Mr Dalton

So, the GURPS manuals always turned me off a little bit because they're . . . very dense.

How do you other games systems work with multiple books? I mean if someone plays 5E, do they not jump from book to book?

In the end, I am not sure I have opened the basic books in quite a while, beyond character creation. Like the big boy games, once you have your full character sheet, cards, and screen/cheat sheet you are good.

Originally Posted by Mr Dalton

So, what I've always wanted to do with witchcraft is make something more versatile than wizardry, but also more psychologically based. Also, including themes of bargaining with spiritual beings. The latter is easy: you study witchcraft, you have a Duty (as the disadvantage) to a spiritual power. Or possibly Pact. I'm not sure which is more appropriate, but Duty seems to do more of what I want it to.
The former, I have ideas, but I'm not super familiar with the magic system because the two games I've played in it didn't use magic. So, might need help balancing it.

So, think how would you stat this out? The "duty" stuff isn't part of your power, it's a disadvantage. It might be part of the gimmick, but it's not a source of power. Meaning a Special Forces guy might "have duty to america, need to save it all the time and live on this base", but that doesn't get him RAMBO skills. Jedi "I have duty to the force, ugh every sunday I gotta go to this thing ... and i cannot talk to my parents", that doesn't get him telekinesis or divination.

So where does the power come from? Well like the other poster says, there are supplements that cover various types of magic variants (and a whole book on variants).

When still using 'Magic', largely these are all broken off of basic page B242 (Alternate Magic Systems: Clerical magic or Ritual Magic).

I am not sure what 'psychological based' magic means (parapsychological?), but if you want to ask the question of you player character "Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?" It's pretty much the PC pays points for ritual magic power and the power is yours (and the spell skills too).

So right then, that seems cheap ... I mean, why should the Goat Lord do this? And what else will he do ... sounds like you are getting a "Patron" for free?

So yeah you might have the player take a duty at equal value "duty to Black Phillip". The skills to wield the power, PC need those too. If you break your duty, expect to lose power levels and perhaps gain some disadvantages.

Or you might ask that they buy "Patron" to offset that duty toward the cost of the Ritual Power level. "powerlevel 40 points" ... "patron 20pts" and "duty 20pts" or whatever its your game. and who knows what the Goat Lord wants (except blood, we know that)


FWIW, I see people making characters like you original suggested at times, where the "duty" is an advantage, it just doesn't work that way. You need to get your Ayn Rand on, as there is no upside to any duty. It's not like a mortgage that gets you a house, no duty in a vacuum is just the mortgage.

Now, you might have something on the other side of that that the duty unlocks ... or you might not. Sense of Duty to the Goat Lord might just get you the ability to keep living. And on a 6 or less he wants a sacrifice.

With Patron, you get ahead of that and turn the tables on Phillip ... he has a duty of sorts to you! (but there is fine print). Unlikely to get far point wise without some duty also to Phillip.

In the end, if you are homebrewing ... it's a lot of effort ... but it sounds like you want that.

The CoC like magic is pretty easy to do as well, essentially the same as CoC. It's a skill, you learn it ... the magic isn't within you its just hacking /lock picking reality with all sorts of eldritch gimmicks (which are harder than learning the spell).

[AlexanderHowl]

Using Powers, it is easy enough to create a power modifier for the OP's form of Witchcraft. As I mentioned earlier, a -20% power modifier would likely work best, a combination of Countermeasures, Mystical, -5%, Fickle, Requires Reaction Roll, -5%, and Pact, -10%. If you want to go full Pathfinder Witch though, you would probably want to include Granted by Familiar, -40%, in the power modifier, for a full -60%.

For example, imagine a witch who possesses TK 20 (Witchcraft, -60%) [40]. Whenever she wants to use her TK powers, she must keep her pact, must succeed on a reaction roll, and must have her familiar nearby. In addition, she is vulnerable to mystical countermeasure, though that is probably not a major concern unless she goes against other witches. If she fulfills all of the conditions though, she can cause a lot of havoc, and the TK can serve as the foundation for alternative abilities and/or improvised abilities.

[Hide]

Hey Dalton,

Full time GURPS, that is awesome!

When it comes to witchcraft, and considering your comments, I guess most of what you seek is outlined in GURPS Ritual Path Magic (RPM). RPM introduces guidelines for ritual magic, its rules are reminiscent of the elements you mentioned.

As I see it, the “psychological” effect is quite easy to implement: Regional mana zones, think of DVD regions. By the way, I would call this a “perception effect”, either personal or collective.

Some of the traditional mana zones are low mana, normal mana, high mana, etc. Then, if your magic is Western and you are in London you might have an advantage of +3 (high mana). And perhaps in Salem, the “perception effect” makes the place a very high mana zone, so you get a +8 in Salem (very high mana).

Requirements such as “convincing” a person they have been bewitched can be handled as a limitation either in spells or a relevant RPM advantage. For example, “requires a contest of will/thaumatology vs thaumatology to work” would be one of the limitations.

Cheers,

[Jinumon]

Considering that you're coming from Pathfinder and that you're relatively new to GURPS, I'm not going to assume you've got access to all the alternative magic supplements like GURPS Thaumatology, GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery, GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic. That said, I'm going to recommend options that should be available to you with just the Basic Set and (hopefully) GURPS Magic.

"Accessibility: Granted by Familiar, -40%" limitation
See Allies: Allies in Play, GURPS Basic Set, pp. 36-37
Apply this modifier to Magery and additional FP (or ER); without the witch's familiar being present, they have no ability to cast spells or use your extra "magic juice."

Duty (Witch's Patron)
See Duty, GURPS Basic Set, pp. 133-134
You've already touched on this yourself. I would recommend a frequency of Fairly Often (9 or less) and the Involuntary modifier, for a total disadvantage value of -10 points. You don't want the patron's interference to become a constant narrative nuisance and, as you've previously stated, refusing to do your Duty can result in some pretty nasty backlash from your patron.

"Pact: Duty (Witch's Patron), -10%" limitation
See Pact, GURPS Basic Set, pp. 113
Apply this modifier to your Magery and additional FP (or ER). Note that this is taken in addition to Duty (Witch's Patron) as a disadvantage. This means that refusing to fulfill your Duty not only causes your patron to start putting the screws to your character and their loved ones, but the witch also loses access to their ability to cast spells and extra "magic juice" until they make good on their Duty.

Ritual Magic
See Alternative Magic Systems: Ritual Magic, GURPS Basic Set, pp. 242
This design switch (does not affect the cost of Magery) will allow witches to improvise spells on-the-fly, while still putting points into specific magical colleges and spells they want to know especially well. Note that you can have multiple kinds of Magery in your world; Wizards can make use of the standard spellcasting system by taking the Magery (Wizardly) advantage while Witches use the Ritual Magic variant by taking the Magery (Witchcraft) advantage instead. See the Spell Table appendix (GURPS Magic, pp. 223-237) for a complete list of Prerequisite Counts.

In the event that you decide to use one of the many alternate magic systems (Sorcery, RPM, etc.), keep in mind that the "Accessibility: Granted by Familiar, -40%" limitation, Duty (Witch's Patron) disadvantage, and "Pact: Duty (Witch's Patron), -10%" limitation, may all still be applied. If you possess the most excellent GURPS Thaumatology supplement, I highly recommend taking a look at Assisting Spirits (pp. 90-94) for a system in which casters can be granted additional power in exchange for being influenced by the "powers that be."

Lastly, remember to apply the "Magical, -10%" limitation to any abilities witches may acquire that aren't specifically spells (Pathfinder's Evil Eye and Cackle hexes, etc.)

I hope this will be of some assistance to you, and welcome to the GURPS family! We all float down here.

Jinumon

[AlexanderHowl]

I would suggest using Modular Abilities (Slotted Cosmic Powers) [7 CP per slot/5 CP per point per slot] as a possible way of representing the Witch's casting. For example, a witch might have Modular Abilities 8/8/8/8/8 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Trait-Limited, Spells Only, -20%; Witch, -60%) [47], which would allow them to receive five H spells at IQ+1 (or five VH spells at IQ). Witches would change their spells by communing with their familiar for a second per spell that they wish the change.