09-05-2019, 06:54 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
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The other thing is that we don't actually know that modern archers don't have skeletal deformation. |
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09-06-2019, 02:38 AM | #32 |
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London, England
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
OK. Here's the thing.
The Mary Rose represents longbows that were using less than optimal wood. The study of the skeletons quoted is now known to be due to familial relations: they share the same deformation due to genetics. Bows are limited by string size. Arrow knocks define useful bow weight. I recommend reading: Pip Bickerstaffe's books. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pip+bic...ref=nb_sb_noss
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09-06-2019, 08:07 AM | #33 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
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I had not heard that name before. I poked around, and I can't find anyone well-regarded who recommends his books, but I did find one Will S: Quote:
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09-07-2019, 01:42 AM | #34 |
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London, England
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
I mostly agree with the above about training today being different to how people trained back 500 years ago. And I understand recent DNA result showed that the two skeletons aboard the Mary Rose were related and shared a genetic defect.
Now, as regards the rest, the internet allows everyone a voice. I've shot on the line with the archers that pull 140lbs bows. So no denying that it can be done. They are not average men, and they're driven to prove that they can pull a "warbow." As such they're outliers on what can be done, and proof that diet and lifestyle are major factors in health and strength. The average man back in the days of the Tudors and earlier was a lot shorter, and lived a harder life. That can work both ways, in that those that survive to become adults will be exceptions, but the average will be less than the best that we can train today. Also, technology has improved. We can make things, and more importantly share that knowledge widely in ways that our ancestors couldn't have imagined. What we can make today far exceeds the quality of what could be made back then. We can make linen strings worth a Kings ransom now. As for the staves to make bows, England had to import good quality staves because we'd used up all our best stocks. The way a bowyer accounts for poor wood is to make the bows thicker. If you use the same quality wood as found on the Mary Rose (measured by the size of the growth rings) you don't get 140lbs bows. So yes, you can make 140lbs. Yes, you can make strings that don't break, but what we can do now is not necessarily what was done then. Law of averages.
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One cannot always win – but one cannot always lose either. Blogs: http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/ http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/ Last edited by Ashley; 09-07-2019 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Line spacing |
09-07-2019, 02:21 AM | #35 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
Bear in mind that, while your average archer likely didn't have much over average innate talent (they'll be slightly above average simply because part of the bottom of the curve flunks out, and thus what remains is a bit above average), they were professional soldiers who spent quite a large amount of time learning their profession, and thus, at least at the thing they were trained for, they would be considerably above average strength, simply because the average person doesn't train those muscles to the same degree.
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09-07-2019, 08:06 AM | #36 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
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09-08-2019, 05:08 AM | #37 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature |
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09-08-2019, 05:35 AM | #38 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
Also, in my view experts show you the range of what is possible. If they say "you can't do that" they are likely to be proved wrong by someone who knows different things than they do, but if they say "I can do that in half the time with a tenth the tools and here is how" everyone should pay attention.
So I find the people who can make, string, and shoot heavy bows which look like the Mary Rose finds good evidence that Kooi's mathematical model of the bows was approximately correct. (And I think he is the first to say that his estimates are only as good as the data which went into them, and that there is at least a 10% margin of error).
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature |
09-08-2019, 02:25 PM | #39 | |
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
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Essentially, the archer's bow arm has the major bulk on the extensors and the draw arm on the flexors. the stronger the muscles, the larger the attachments, and the attachments are visible in bone and detailed MRI and CAT-Scan. Differences in the wrist; bow arm repeated compressive stress, draw arm tension stress, both of which are also distinctive. |
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09-08-2019, 04:58 PM | #40 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Video of arrows vs. armor using period materials
Muscles that can draw 160 lb on a 6'2" frame are less out of proportion to the rest of the body that muscles that can draw 160 lb on a 5'8" frame, not because the muscles themselves are smaller, but because they're closer to normal size for the frame as a whole.
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