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Old 11-12-2018, 10:44 PM   #1
onetrikpony
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Default Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

Just a thought that occurred to me;

Why don't vitals shots modifiers (p, 399) correspond to the modifiers for size (p, 550)?

Seems that a called shot to the eye should have the same modifier as shooting a 1" target.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:10 PM   #2
Plane
 
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

-11 to hit instead of -9? I don't hate the idea, but let's break this down first. The largest possible measurement of the human eye I can see at https://www.hindawi.com/journals/joph/2014/503645/ is 27mm transverse which works out to 1.06299 inches.

B19 says "If a creature’s longest dimension falls between two entries on the table, base its SM on the higher value." so this would be bumped up to -10 for 1.5 inches.

Then you have "Box-, sphere-, or blob-shaped characters add +2 to SM; elongated boxes, like most ground vehicles, add +1." so maybe the +1 (SM-9 for 2 inches) default hit location is because eyes are considered elongated boxes?

Tranverse diameter can be as low as 21mm (0.826772 inches) and averages at 24.2 (0.9527559 inches) though, which seems to support a baseline of -11 like you say.

With the rules being designed assuming the largest possible human eye, maybe "small eyes, -1 to hit" could be some kind of perk? Eyes which are a total of -10 to hit can already be attained by humans who are SM-1 overall with the Dwarfism trait, too.

Last edited by Plane; 11-12-2018 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

That question has already been discussed a lot in the past and the main answer is: because hit location penalties are not given for an unmoving target but for a man, in front of you, during combat - which means moving and maintaining a guard

So, in other situations, they have to be modified a bit.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

This has always bothered me too. I wrote a blog post on this a while back where I attempt to address the issue.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:35 AM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

Since the largest human eye's largest dimension is under 1.5 inches (SM-10) and "elongated box SM+1" gets it to the -9, are you saying that eyes are more like "blob-shaped SM+2" (base -8) and the -1 that brings it to a -9 final is due to speed/range?

Not taking distance into account (distance in yards is added to yards/second on the table) to get a -1 penalty for Speed alone is 2<x<3 with x being yards per second. For someone who doesn't leave their own hex, although the final relative movement is capped at 1yd, the sum of movement vectors back and forth throughout that second could exceed that.

If rules assume that people are doing a variety of things to incur the -1, then a +1 to hit those who are totalling less than 2y/s worth of sum movements.

Or, if you take the basic hit locations to assume an unmoving target, maybe use the distance penalties even for melee combat and for attacks on the head, supplement distance by Basic Speed multiplied by each headbutt, retreat or dodge against head/neck/torso attacks you've done in the last second.

Could do similar for limbs but with attacks/parries in place of headbutts and "dodge against attacks on that limb" in place of dodge against head/neck/torso.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

The big reason for the mismatch is because the hit location modifiers predate the SSR and include implicit modifiers for how easy they are to protect. As another historical oddity, the torso is +0 to be hit, and really should be no better than -1.

On the blob-shaped issue, my preferred rule is to average short and long SSR and add 2, rounding up, so the +2 applies if the short dimension is no more than 1 SM less than the long, +1 if no more than 3.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:36 AM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
As another historical oddity, the torso is +0 to be hit, and really should be no better than -1.
-1 to hit the torso would match up with the -10% discount for Torso Only on DR, at least. So would rolling to hit at -0 assume taking Random Hit Location? What would you charge for targeting torso sublocations like the chest (normally -0) or the abdomen (normally -1) ? Perhaps -2 and -3? In that case perhaps increase the penalty for hitting groin or vitals from -3 to -4 (like an extremity), extremities from -4 to -5 to tie with the face?
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
This has always bothered me too. I wrote a blog post on this a while back where I attempt to address the issue.
I tried to leave a comment on that post, but it doesn't seem to go through. (Though maybe you got something on your end.)

For the record, here's a paste of the attempted comment:

===

I'm all for reworked target location penalties based on actual size/shape. Overall it looks good.

A question about your example, though, of the SM -5 skull-shaped robot vs the game's canonical -7 TH skull location. You call that a mismatch, but I wonder whether you're taking the RAW skull hit location to mean the actual entire skull. Because my understanding is that the game's skull location – by design, and setting strange terminology aside – isn't actually the skull, but rather what should be called the skullcap. Just the brain area, that is – which could be considered about half the size of the whole skull, and thus -7 instead of -5 TH.

So with that in mind, I never considered skull location TH to be odd relative to general head TH.

That aside, things look good. (Especially torso – it's a subset of the entire body, so a TH penalty only makes sense, though I can understand the simplicity value of RAW ignoring that.)
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

relevant krommquote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
… Hit location penalties consider three factors:

1. Target size. How large or small the body part is -- in essence, its Size Modifier. (On bigger or smaller foes, overall SM accounts for changes in the size of body parts; e.g., since an SM +2 giant is attacked at +2 no matter where you hit him, his hands and head are effectively larger by +2.)

2. Target mobility. The body part's potential range of movement, speed of movement, and likely movements in a combat situation. (This isn't treated as a Dodge bonus simply because a body part moving unpredictably is still a hard target for, say, a surprise attack where no defense is allowed. An entire man running in a straight line isn't, really.)

3. Target attitude. How the body part is normally offered in combat. This accounts for whether it's presented or denied by combat stances, often behind other body parts or a shield, above or below the usual line of attack for an equal-sized foe, etc. (Incidentally, this explains why the feet of a higher fighter or head of a lower fighter are struck at a bonus, despite the body part not changing size!)

A helmed head, for instance, isn't all that small; it's between 8" and 1' across (SM -5) and basically spherical (+2 to SM, for a net -3 for size). However, it's highly mobile (-1): it twists around on a neck constantly in a fight, and it's maximally displaced from the center of mass, meaning its potential range of movement is exceptionally high. It's also generally denied (-1): no tried-and-true combat stance leads with the jaw; moreover, against another man, it's above the median line of attack. This gives -5.

A gloved hand is over 5" across (SM -6) and basically spherical (+2 to SM, for a net -4 for size) when balled into a fist for punching or around a weapon grip. It, too, is highly mobile (-1): it whizzes around striking and parrying, and is highly displaced from the center of mass. However, it is most commonly presented (+1), since all that striking and parrying is a tad difficult otherwise -- and if it's able to defend, then it has a high probability of being right on the median line of attack. This gives -4. The same hand behind a shield has the full -6 for size, as it isn't balled up into a sphere, and is mobile (-1) and denied (-1), which gives -8.

A weapon arm, shoulder to wrist, is about a yard long (SM -2), long and skinny (no SM adjustment), mobile (-1), and presented (+1). That's -2.

A shield arm, shoulder to wrist, is also about a yard long (SM -2), mobile (-1), and denied (-1). That's -4.

And so on. A few body parts might not quite make sense in these terms if you don't agree with my assessments of mobility and attitude, or whether the SM ought to assume a stick (0), elongated box (+1), or sphere (+2), but I think you can see how it works.
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:28 AM   #10
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
I tried to leave a comment on that post, but it doesn't seem to go through. (Though maybe you got something on your end.)
I have no clue why it wouldn't allow you to leave a comment. I have it set where anyone can comment and there is no comment moderation. I didn't receive any sort of notification that you attempted to leave a comment.


Quote:
A question about your example, though, of the SM -5 skull-shaped robot vs the game's canonical -7 TH skull location. You call that a mismatch, but I wonder whether you're taking the RAW skull hit location to mean the actual entire skull. Because my understanding is that the game's skull location – by design, and setting strange terminology aside – isn't actually the skull, but rather what should be called the skullcap. Just the brain area, that is
It was years and years ago when I made these rules (most of the things posted to my blog were my old rules), so I have trouble remembering what I was thinking at the time, but I seem to recall that I considered the size of the skull to take into account the area on the back of the head that includes the brain.

The size of the area the game calls the skull depends largely on the angle. It appears smaller from the front than it does from the back and the sides. I believe that's what I was taking into account.

I might just be wrong, though. I'm certainly open to that possibility. My goal in making my blog posts is always to open a discussion--not to present my way as the best way.
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