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Old 07-23-2020, 10:28 PM   #1601
Purple Snit
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

I'm in agreement with Phantasm on this one. As a GM, I disallow characters built wih the logic that "a higher stat is more cost-effective than buying up all the skills." Characters should be built in a way that works for the campaign and the character, not according to a "point-break" system. No characters should be built that way unless explicitly encouraged/allowed by the GM and campaign, IMO, and if the campaign (or project) leans towards lower stats, with appropriate skill levels, then that's the way characters should be built. "Cinematic" doesn't equal "preternatural".
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:44 AM   #1602
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
I'm in agreement with Phantasm on this one. As a GM, I disallow characters built wih the logic that "a higher stat is more cost-effective than buying up all the skills." Characters should be built in a way that works for the campaign and the character, not according to a "point-break" system. No characters should be built that way unless explicitly encouraged/allowed by the GM and campaign, IMO, and if the campaign (or project) leans towards lower stats, with appropriate skill levels, then that's the way characters should be built. "Cinematic" doesn't equal "preternatural".
I also agree. It, of course, depend on the setting, but in most case, if there is a choice between IQ/DX 20 or IQ/DX 15+talent+high skill to reach the "campaign adequate" performance level, I would encourage the player to go the second way. If it mean giving him a few more cp at creation to make it possible, so be it.
Thre are exception, of course. When a character *is* defined by a wide scope of skills and abilities related to attributes at master level and by performing at expert level in previously untrained skills in several domains. But those should remain rare, imho.

Last edited by Celjabba; 07-24-2020 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 07-24-2020, 09:05 AM   #1603
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Hm, we are talking about fictional characters in the Marvel Universe here, the border between human and superhuman is much higher than in a realistic setting. There is nothing remotely realistic about building 'normal' people with 750+ CP, giving them cinematic advantages, or giving them Wildcard Skills at any level. The rule of cool is what governs fictional characters in the Marvel Universe, such characters need realistic motivations rather than realistic capabilities, and state normalization does not make sense for many of the fictional characters from the Marvel Universe.

I would say that having DX, IQ, or HT beteeen 15-20 is cinematic rather than superhuman, and cinematic character are definitely part of the Marvel Universe. They should also have cinematic advantages and Wildcard Skills as well as cinematic attributes, but their lack of powers prevents them from being superhuman. Of course, there exists a fine line between cinematic and superhuman, especially in the Marvel Universe, as a ST 20 character with Power Blow-36 can outperform a character with lower levels of superhuman ST.

Now, it is quite possible to play a realistic people in the Marvel Universe, the vast majority of supporting characters are realistic people in both their motivations and their capabilities, though they may be exceptional. In general, such characters should be built with a maximum of 500 CP, no more than 20 in ST and 14 in DX, IQ, and HT, no cinematic advantages or skills, and no Wildcard skills. They would not be as capable as a character like Kim though, who is cinematically capable. It could make a good roleplaying exercise though.
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Old 07-24-2020, 09:15 AM   #1604
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
(plus cinematic abilities like Enhanced Defenses, which are technically not legal without powers or cinematic advantages like Trained by a Master).
This isn't true at all. The description of Enhanced Defenses in the Basic Set just says that the GM might require WM/TbaM to take it. I checked several books, including Supers and Martial Arts, and never saw anywhere that said you need one of those advantages to take Enhanced Defenses.
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Old 07-24-2020, 09:23 AM   #1605
naloth
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
I'm in agreement with Phantasm on this one. As a GM, I disallow characters built wih the logic that "a higher stat is more cost-effective than buying up all the skills." Characters should be built in a way that works for the campaign and the character, not according to a "point-break" system. No characters should be built that way unless explicitly encouraged/allowed by the GM and campaign, IMO, and if the campaign (or project) leans towards lower stats, with appropriate skill levels, then that's the way characters should be built. "Cinematic" doesn't equal "preternatural".
I'm in sort of the opposite camp. Where I track point values, I try to make the most of what you can get for the point value. It misrepresents the overall power level of a character when you sink a bunch of points into something that really doesn't give you value. Really, it's better to just present stats and ignore totals if you intentionally build things that don't reflect what you could do for that total.

As for which stats are normal, super, or cinematic - that tends to be what the GM believes is appropriate for the campaign. Wild card skills tend to be shorthand as much as competency, so I don't have a problem swapping 10 individual skills for one more expensive line item. Cinematic advantages are appropriate in a game world that's cinematic. It's no more unrealistic than an alien race in a hard sci-fi game.
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:02 AM   #1606
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
This isn't true at all. The description of Enhanced Defenses in the Basic Set just says that the GM might require WM/TbaM to take it. I checked several books, including Supers and Martial Arts, and never saw anywhere that said you need one of those advantages to take Enhanced Defenses.
Martial Arts and Supers both limit them to cinematic characters, and only cinematic advantages all for unrestricted defenses, like Enhanced Dodge and Enhanced Parry (All). In general though, you need cinematic advantages or superpowers to purchase such traits unless they are under the optional traits of the individual's styles, even in cinematic settings, which is not the case with Kim's styles. Anyway, the Fist!-24 build makes them unnecessary, and it keeps her original attributes.
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:09 AM   #1607
Phantasm
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Well, question for folks pushing for DX 20. How high would you set folks who actually have superhuman dexterity? (And for IQ 20, for folks with "superhuman intelligence"?)

It's trying to balance those that led me to capping "normal" at 15 rather than 20. (I also severely dislike folks doing stuff by defaults where the default is in the 14-16 range, so that had something to do with it.)

Also, if I change KP, that means going back and redoing at least a third of the characters previously made over the last 13 years, including but not limited to Spider-Man, Reed Richards, Nightangel (an OC Helena Wayne/Huntress expy), and Black Widow (Romanoff).
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:33 AM   #1608
Purple Snit
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Exactly; if Kim Possible (highly-trained but unpowered secret agent) has DX and HT 20, what DX do you give Spidey or Nightcrawler, what HT do you give Thor? No, I absolutely agree that you have to draw the line where it works for you, and you have established your limits here. I would do the same - if highly-trained but unpowered people push to the max, where do the supers and mutants go, before it all becomes unplayable?
Besides, to a DX 10 slug like most of us folks, a DX 15 acrobat pretty much looks superhuman anyway...
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:36 AM   #1609
Anders
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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It's trying to balance those that led me to capping "normal" at 15 rather than 20. (I also severely dislike folks doing stuff by defaults where the default is in the 14-16 range, so that had something to do with it.)
Right. I put "normal" at "no more than 16) for my games (but I use KYOS, so ST 16 is BL 80, which is on the high side but whatever).
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:01 AM   #1610
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Martial Arts and Supers both limit them to cinematic characters
Yes, and? This clearly is a cinematic setting, so I don't see how this has anything to do with it.

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and only cinematic advantages all for unrestricted defenses, like Enhanced Dodge and Enhanced Parry (All).
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In general though, you need cinematic advantages or superpowers to purchase such traits unless they are under the optional traits of the individual's styles, even in cinematic settings
Says who? It's certainly not in the Basic Set.
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